A number of mechanics suggestions

[Sheister]

OK and all the KD's that waved got rocked, as they should. I do not recall any statement that this game is all about making it easy to crown. Inso has done nothing but lose and lose all age. Same with psych ward. If this is a case of "alliances" taking advantage of game mechanics, I would submit that no game mechanic can withstand alliance manipulation. But to alter a mechanic that works for 354 kingdoms because it happens to have worked out badly for 2 kingdoms is a screwed up policy.

Kingdoms in the top like to boast that most of the game is all about diplomacy at the top. Well, it looks like HoH and Rage had diplomacy failures that cost them a little. Obviously not too much as they are #1 and #2.

so to review:

Your two examples of small KD's waving up to interefere with crowning were done against the kingdoms that are ranked #1 and #2. Your other example was a larger KD picking a fight with a smaller KD and then getting caught and they are still in the top 4 with something of a shot of crowning but for their own political affiliations that prevent them from competing with #1 and #2.

Nope, I stand by my statement that this is a self created problem or not a problem at all.

[Elit]

I dont know why some from top land chart kds are so much against NW range declare. Do you think its fair for one kd to be 50% smaller and trapped in war? How its fair? Its was used and abused so many times from big kds and shell kds. I simple don't like it. Why province gains is stick main to 85-115% and after 75-125 % drop dramatically? Its because game nature is to fight provinces/kds in similar size.
Your analyze TheRock is very good but if you read it few times you can find answer: Don't make more cows/banks if they put your kd in nw disadvantage against small kds. Its very simple solution! Having smaller kds option to strike back is good, because its bring more competition in top overall and make win more hard.
Maybe declare range can be up with 5% from both sides because i know wars with 30% bigger kd where smaller kd win, but i don't know single war in 50% range where smaller kd had any chance. Dont see how FARM wars make game better.

[TheRock]

OK and all the KD's that waved got rocked, as they should. I do not recall any statement that this game is all about making it easy to crown. Inso has done nothing but lose and lose all age. Same with psych ward. If this is a case of "alliances" taking advantage of game mechanics, I would submit that no game mechanic can withstand alliance manipulation. But to alter a mechanic that works for 354 kingdoms because it happens to have worked out badly for 2 kingdoms is a screwed up policy.

Kingdoms in the top like to boast that most of the game is all about diplomacy at the top. Well, it looks like HoH and Rage had diplomacy failures that cost them a little. Obviously not too much as they are #1 and #2.

so to review:

Your two examples of small KD's waving up to interefere with crowning were done against the kingdoms that are ranked #1 and #2. Your other example was a larger KD picking a fight with a smaller KD and then getting caught and they are still in the top 4 with something of a shot of crowning but for their own political affiliations that prevent them from competing with #1 and #2.

Nope, I stand by my statement that this is a self created problem or not a problem at all.

They only got rocked because they (correctly) recognized that fighting back was a much worse play, long term, than just letting the acres walk.

I don't think anyone "boasts" that it's about diplomacy, they just state it. Every kingdom wants to war, it's just that some kingdoms want to try and win more than they want to fight. This change only encourages a move AWAY from fighting.

The problem, which based on your post I don't think you understand, is that this change encourages kingdoms not to fight and encourages other kingdoms to pick fights that can't and won't result in real conflict. My examples reflect this. I didn't (and still won't) say it's about interfering with crowning - I think it's a method for growth that can be done at all levels of the game. The top kingdoms almost always find the innovative strategies first. As more kingdoms start to realize how prevalent this is, more people will be affected by it. Consider this -IIRC, at the start of the age, BIO had a problem with a kingdom that was hitting them. Even just days into the age, BIO was too big to declare them (which is impressive, given that everyone starts so close in NW) and had no options but to waste a ton of time and effort hitting them down. That's not a "crowning" issue - it was a few days into the age and BIO, as Elves, were starting slow. It's abuseable in many different ways, none of which promote anything other than boring play or play that requires kingdoms not to get into real (read: potential for war) fights.

I'm also impressed that you thought you were right based on a set of assumptions, had those assumptions almost completely reversed and then still decided you were right. That's slick thinking on your feet :)

[TheRock]

I dont know why some from top land chart kds are so much against NW range declare. Do you think its fair for one kd to be 50% smaller and trapped in war? How its fair? Its was used and abused so many times from big kds and shell kds. I simple don't like it. Why province gains is stick main to 85-115% and after 75-125 % drop dramatically? Its because game nature is to fight provinces/kds in similar size.
Your analyze TheRock is very good but if you read it few times you can find answer: Don't make more cows/banks if they put your kd in nw disadvantage against small kds. Its very simple solution! Having smaller kds option to strike back is good, because its bring more competition in top overall and make win more hard.
Maybe declare range can be up with 5% from both sides because i know wars with 30% bigger kd where smaller kd win, but i don't know single war in 50% range where smaller kd had any chance. Dont see how FARM wars make game better.

Agreed 100% with the sentiment on farm wars. It didn't even take shell kds - all you needed was a "friend" in a ghetto to hit your kingdom a few times and you had a button. I've seen a number of cases where kingdoms that were vulnerable "conveniently" got a button from a random ghetto and were suddenly "in real war, so STFO!!!". That was not a fun way to play the game, either.

The only reason kingdoms still bank is because now, after the explore pool changes, it's the only effective way to clear pool. It's so much more expensive that even the old coss/Webmaster Sleepy play, where they'd explore their whole pool and then go to FW for a week, is basically not doable - no FW AND it's way more costly to make that explore jump. If you want to remove exploring from the game, that's fine, but as it stands, the developers have encouraged a playstyle where banking is even more effective than before.

The new system needs to be such that it can't be abused by bottomfeeders/farm wars (full disclosure - I totally declared a ghetto ~55% of my NW last age, although they hit me first and we absolutely didn't ask them for it or demand they do it, JohnSnowstorm and someone else from Pulse [I forgot who, sorry - I suck with names] played there and can confirm) but it also can't be abused by topfeeders looking to steal acres. I'm open to ideas on it (declare range being based off who made the initial hits? declare range being based off who moves their meter to hostile first) but the current system is wide open to abuse, in a way that is detrimental to allowing the best kingdoms to fight to win.

If the most important part of trying to win is making friends with small kingdoms to get them to hit your enemies, that's a bad system.

[Sheister]

They only got rocked because they (correctly) recognized that fighting back was a much worse play, long term, than just letting the acres walk.

I don't think anyone "boasts" that it's about diplomacy, they just state it. Every kingdom wants to war, it's just that some kingdoms want to try and win more than they want to fight. This change only encourages a move AWAY from fighting.

So they were not discouraged from fighting, they tried and lost to the larger KD. So things worked the way you think they should. I still don't see your problem.

The problem, which based on your post I don't think you understand, is that this change encourages kingdoms not to fight and encourages other kingdoms to pick fights that can't and won't result in real conflict.

No, it encourages KD's that only care about their acres not to fight. So, go ahead and don't fight. Trust me, the rest of the server would not care even the slightest if the top 5 just went away and diced forever as long as you did not random on us all the time and then act like we desecrated your church by hitting back. Go off in your little world of dicing with your pointless banks and stop trying to interact with everyone who is so unfair to you.

My examples reflect this. I didn't (and still won't) say it's about interfering with crowning

Lies: I submit from your prior posts:

Rather than adapt? I've seen at least a half a dozen waves by smaller kingdoms on much larger kingdoms and have seen multiple retal fights. Every single time, the smaller kingdom at the very least effectively stalled the larger kingdom by gaining acres. This system encourages that kind of behavior and that kind of play. Either you don't understand or you don't care that winning fights is not the same as winning chart position, but this is just another change implemented that encourages kingdoms to not grow and makes growing and competing for the top less fun.

from post 84; and

Fact: the best method for a top kingdom to try and win an age right now is to find a smaller kingdom that wants to grow and getting them to wave a huge kingdom. This is an open secret.

from post 86

- I think it's a method for growth that can be done at all levels of the game. The top kingdoms almost always find the innovative strategies first. As more kingdoms start to realize how prevalent this is, more people will be affected by it. Consider this -IIRC, at the start of the age, BIO had a problem with a kingdom that was hitting them. Even just days into the age, BIO was too big to declare them (which is impressive, given that everyone starts so close in NW) and had no options but to waste a ton of time and effort hitting them down. That's not a "crowning" issue - it was a few days into the age and BIO, as Elves, were starting slow. It's abuseable in many different ways, none of which promote anything other than boring play or play that requires kingdoms not to get into real (read: potential for war) fights.

BiO? PLease according to flogger he chose this setup to mess with that kingdom specifically. He has dedicated this age to trying to pick fights with that KD so using BiO and its gameplay this age for anything rational is LOL.

I'm also impressed that you thought you were right based on a set of assumptions, had those assumptions almost completely reversed and then still decided you were right. That's slick thinking on your feet :)

No, it is looking at the situation a little closer. Until you pointed out those KDs and argued the point I never bothered to even look at them as they are about as relevant to my enjoyment of this game as this problem is (unlike your proposed solution which would make life miserable for the other 300+ kingdoms on the server). I went back and looked at the rankings and notices that two of your examples are #1 and #2. So by turning and fighting, they did not lose squat in terms of fighting for their crown. the evidence suggests that these KDs who get waved perhaps have a mild slowdown but have no problem remaining competitive thus your entire problem is an illusion. So, my point originally was that I did not think it happened ( I am still not sure it did, but am not motivated enough to look at all the logs and 30+ page threads on wars that have no impact on this game whatsoever). Then you said it really did in two cases. so then I went and looked at those two KDs because I was curious to see how badly they are suffering from this horribly punitive mechanic. Oh look, they are #1 and #2, so they are fine, the mechanic is fine, their former adversaries are fine. As near as I can see, no one is suffering at all from this.

So here is what I propose. First, meet and beat the "so what?" threshold. What damage is being done. Then demonstrate how your proposed solution is LESS DAMAGING to the majority of kingdoms in this game. Then also demonstrate how the majority of kingdoms in this game are damaged by the current mechanic. Then maybe this will be worth talking about further.

Until then, learn to adapt to your "new" problem of small kingdoms having the guts to oppose you instead of letting you walk away with your crown efforts.

[Mal]

TLDR my ass. Looks totally like a learn to play issue if a kd 25% smaller than you is now such a threat you have to be able to declare on them. But hey, rather than adapt lets make it so you can declare on someone half your size.

NO.

We seem to be speaking across from each other so I wonder if you can answer two questions

(1) how does this improve the game? What is its intended effect, and is it having that effect?

(2) what do you believe is the appropriate strategic response to getting waved by a kingdom outside your declare range?

[Sheister]

ooooo let me Bishop. I will use the trusted answer of top KD's to complaints by smaller KD's being waved by them for more ages than I can count:

1) hit back, use ops. You are the most experienced players in the game. You can't seriously be telling me you can't figure out a way to be competitive. You have to raze and kill some provinces? so do it. Stop whining. It is not a problem for the rest of the game that your growth is slowed. No one else cares if you crown. deal with your problems and stop making them other people's. If this becomes a general problem (which it wont) then maybe it is worth addressing.

2) and my all time favorite. You should try diplomacy...............

[Mal]

ooooo let me Bishop. I will use the trusted answer of top KD's to complaints by smaller KD's being waved by them for more ages than I can count:

1) hit back, use ops. You are the most experienced players in the game. You can't seriously be telling me you can't figure out a way to be competitive. You have to raze and kill some provinces? so do it. Stop whining. It is not a problem for the rest of the game that your growth is slowed. No one else cares if you crown. deal with your problems and stop making them other people's. If this becomes a general problem (which it wont) then maybe it is worth addressing.

2) and my all time favorite. You should try diplomacy...............

First off, I lead the number one kingdom in the game I don't need your snark. As I mentioned earlier it is a combination of things that make this change difficult to manage. largely how overpowered dicing growth is relative to gaining acres from other kingdoms.

This is the type of thing that makes people quit because it is not fun. Telling my players that we have to give up waves to weak kingdoms is not fun. The current game makes it difficult to have a lot of conflicts in the top, I want more conflicts not isolation. If I wanted a single player game I would have played one.

I simply don't understand the point in protecting the aggressor kingdom, if you want to start a conflict with a bigger kingdom there should be a consequence of warring that kingdom. Hamstringing the ability to fight seems odd which is why I want to know the point of this change.

[Sheister]

I know that, which is why you need every bit of my snark. You take yourself way too seriously. If dicing is more powerful than war and you are intent on a land crown then you have to decide what is most profitable for you. If that is less fun, too bad. You can choose to have fun or you can choose to chase the land crown no matter what. That is a CHOICE you make. It is not my fault, the dev's fault, or anyone else that is responsible for your decision to pursue that strategy. If you are worried about that slowing you down, then wave a competitor (oh wait, you are NAP'd or CF with noticed to everyone so you can't be flexible, I guess that is another problem you made for yourself).

If you want more conflicts, NAP less. If your players don't like giving up waves, then they can decide to fight. It is not protecting the aggressor Kingdom that is the point, it is protecting smaller kingdoms from the over abundance of hits from your kingdom and kingdoms like yours because you CF and NAP each other to the point that you must hit all the smaller KDs. Well tough luck man. You guys created this culture. This is what ABS worked hard for ages to create. A world where we have endless CFs and NAPS at the top and therefore you are forced to bottom feed thus requiring the dev's to put protections in place to shelter the rest of the server from your predatory behaviors.

Get a pair and fight people your own size and stop naping them all the time. if people hit you, then fight and don't whine.

the top KD's made this problem. Suck it up and live with the game you created with your past behaviors.

I just thought of another decent solution here. Take the abs KDs (and any others that really want to join them (all 6 of you I suppose) and put them on their own server where they can just dice and there are no armies or anything. Then it is just an activity dice race. Go have that fun. But stop trying to lord your superiority over every other KD on this server on these boards and then cry because they actually try to fight you.

[Elit]

First off, I lead the number one kingdom in the game I don't need your snark.

This kind of argument make you look weak and its not constructive. If your kd was waved from weak kd and you are still n1 its say system work normal and you are good enough to be n1.

[Mal]

This kind of argument make you look weak and its not constructive. If your kd was waved from weak kd and you are still n1 its say system work normal and you are good enough to be n1.

I was responding to the "learn to play" based logic. Telling the number one kingdom they need to learn to play is hardly helpful.

I don't think any kingdom plays for the crown and nothing else. Is it really so muchto ask that the game be fun for everyone? You are under some pretty odd delusions about the top. I have made 20 attacks this age, 17 of which were on kingdoms in range. We have had conflicts with 3 out of 4 of our major competitors and could possibly have a conflict with the 4th.

These hardly seem like we are "napping" everyone or "only bottom feeding". Fighting in the top takes more planning and preparation this is due to game mechanics not our choices. Believe it or not we have fun warring just like you do. I'd be perfectly fine with no explore or paradise and land only coming from conflicts.

It is not whining to suggest that something is a problem that should be fixed. You seem to be saying that the top is somehow less worthy of consideration in making changes. All I want is for the gameplay to be good throughout the game. If we need to protect smaller kingdoms, then let's find a way to do that. But to me it seems as though most kingdoms are already hitting within their own range.

[Sheister]

OK, fair enough, let me dial back some of my rhetoric here.

A lot of my belief that many top KD's play for the crown and nothing else is based on the sample of the more vocal posters on the boards so, there is a stereotype there that it seems we are all bucking. Honestly, it has been since age 30-something since I played near the top so..... I am out of date (well i can't count last age really, since we kept trying to leave the top 10 and for some reason could not..... but that is another tangent.)

From what I, in a smaller (read usually mid 30's) KD see is tons of random grabs into my KD regularly even though we can break the lower half of the KD bottom feeding on us (which means it is one of the idiots that think they are elite, as truly elite KD players would NEVER hit my KD, they would do the extra work to find a better target) and then getting pissy when they lose out when we retal. then, because my KD is untagged, they are going to teach my ghetto a lesson and retal 2x or 3x (so now we completely control the hostile) and we can recoup that again in one hit. Then they keep going and the messages start (presumably because again we are untagged, tagged I am sure the IRC pm's would flood in) threatening all sorts of things with insults and mean comments all over the place. Eventually this ends in a CF with notice (which is effectively a nap as no KD is going to notice so that some idiot in their KD can make one random and few are the KD's that I would just hit up into given the NW differences in involved here). This strong-arm everyone else attitude is what is at the heart of what the top KDs show the rest of the server so please understand, most of the server does not want to play with you. They just want you to go away. Therefore, whatever mechanic is there to make you back off gains support from the majority of players.

If we want discrete ranges of attack, then we need to eliminate penalties and interpose bars. However, bars are increadibly abusable at the margins. You can't expect me to ever believe that with a bar that the ABS crew would not calculate precisely the end of the bar, then make sure to hit a KD on the edge knowing that subsequent NW drop will make the hit unretalable. We all know that is how ABS will play so clearly bars won't work. The only other option is to structure penalties to where people will choose not to hit there. and they do work up. In my last war, I ended up having to spend WAAAAAAAAAAAAY to much time fireballing a bank with over 90% fail rate because of the NW difference. I kept doing it because I had no choice, but my god it was annoying. But for that province the KD's were dead even and it would have been a very enjoyable war.

these NW penalties are used both ways. simple.

the top is not less worth of consideration, but the problem as presented is smaller KD's just waving larger ones. Three examples were erected to demonstrate that. ONe was not true, and of the other two, the KD's who were waved prevailed and, contrary to the suggestion that they would be blocked/stalled/etc they are flourishing at spots #1 and #2. So to say this is a problem is a farce. If there even is a problem, thus far it has impacted two KDs. It is asinine to alter a system that works for 350+ KDs because 2 happen to have temporarily (at best) had problems as a result of the system.

[TheRock]

OK, fair enough, let me dial back some of my rhetoric here.

A lot of my belief that many top KD's play for the crown and nothing else is based on the sample of the more vocal posters on the boards so, there is a stereotype there that it seems we are all bucking. Honestly, it has been since age 30-something since I played near the top so..... I am out of date (well i can't count last age really, since we kept trying to leave the top 10 and for some reason could not..... but that is another tangent.)

From what I, in a smaller (read usually mid 30's) KD see is tons of random grabs into my KD regularly even though we can break the lower half of the KD bottom feeding on us (which means it is one of the idiots that think they are elite, as truly elite KD players would NEVER hit my KD, they would do the extra work to find a better target) and then getting pissy when they lose out when we retal. then, because my KD is untagged, they are going to teach my ghetto a lesson and retal 2x or 3x (so now we completely control the hostile) and we can recoup that again in one hit. Then they keep going and the messages start (presumably because again we are untagged, tagged I am sure the IRC pm's would flood in) threatening all sorts of things with insults and mean comments all over the place. Eventually this ends in a CF with notice (which is effectively a nap as no KD is going to notice so that some idiot in their KD can make one random and few are the KD's that I would just hit up into given the NW differences in involved here). This strong-arm everyone else attitude is what is at the heart of what the top KDs show the rest of the server so please understand, most of the server does not want to play with you. They just want you to go away. Therefore, whatever mechanic is there to make you back off gains support from the majority of players.

If we want discrete ranges of attack, then we need to eliminate penalties and interpose bars. However, bars are increadibly abusable at the margins. You can't expect me to ever believe that with a bar that the ABS crew would not calculate precisely the end of the bar, then make sure to hit a KD on the edge knowing that subsequent NW drop will make the hit unretalable. We all know that is how ABS will play so clearly bars won't work. The only other option is to structure penalties to where people will choose not to hit there. and they do work up. In my last war, I ended up having to spend WAAAAAAAAAAAAY to much time fireballing a bank with over 90% fail rate because of the NW difference. I kept doing it because I had no choice, but my god it was annoying. But for that province the KD's were dead even and it would have been a very enjoyable war.

these NW penalties are used both ways. simple.

the top is not less worth of consideration, but the problem as presented is smaller KD's just waving larger ones. Three examples were erected to demonstrate that. ONe was not true, and of the other two, the KD's who were waved prevailed and, contrary to the suggestion that they would be blocked/stalled/etc they are flourishing at spots #1 and #2. So to say this is a problem is a farce. If there even is a problem, thus far it has impacted two KDs. It is asinine to alter a system that works for 350+ KDs because 2 happen to have temporarily (at best) had problems as a result of the system.

Two things

1. Hi, I'm therock and I'm not an asshole
2. Holy **** you write a lot, I'm not answering point by point on that ****

Absalom kingdoms that are trying to win the age play to win. Your straw man argument can be summed up as "Absalom kingdoms will spend lots of time and effort to work within the system to win". If that means hitting at the edge of "bars", as you put it, then yeah, we'd probably do it. If the best move was to dice, we'd dice (crap, we already do this). This isn't surprising - LOTS of kingdoms do this. The only difference is that Abs has been doing it, as a group, for longer. Covenant did it when they were around, NoX did it when they were around, KLA did it when they were around. This is not news.

ONe was not true, and of the other two, the KD's who were waved prevailed and, contrary to the suggestion that they would be blocked/stalled/etc they are flourishing at spots #1 and #2. So to say this is a problem is a farce. If there even is a problem, thus far it has impacted two KDs. It is asinine to alter a system that works for 350+ KDs because 2 happen to have temporarily (at best) had problems as a result of the system.

Again, you're wrong about that first one. Sanc hit Snakes after Snakes had been hitting (I know) Rage and (I think) HOH. It's not like Snakes wasn't starting topfeed fights. Sanc made a couple of hits. Snakes made a full wave. Facts please :)

The other two prevailed? I've never known giving out waves to be prevailing. That they are in first and second right now is not because they gave up waves, but because they beat up the competition after doing so (Rage vs OS, HOH vs BIO, Rage vs BIO). Correlation doesn't imply causation. The fact is, those were situations where the optimal play was for Rage and HOH to concede a loss. They smartly made that play, then went on to get ahead. To say it's a problem is a farce? That's bull****. You're saying that two very strong kingdoms playing well enough to overcome a problem means the problem doesn't exist? That's silly.

The system DOESN'T work for 350+ kds, you just haven't seen enough symptoms for yourself yet. I gave you only a few examples - this is hardly a comprehensive list. I'll give you two more kingdoms it didn't work for - Mercy vs Monument, when we had them just under 75% of our NW. Without our bank, the kingdoms were the same size. They wanted a war, we wanted a war, we both had to deal with things to make sure we could have the war we wanted. It is asinine to think that a system works for everyone just because some kingdoms haven't been affected by it yet and you haven't heard all of the stories where other kingdoms have.

[Mal]

So what you are suggesting is that in your experience you were already able to effectively deal with a bigger kingdom hitting you aren't you? You hold the button and hit for better gains topfeeding?

The suggestion I made in my thread was to make it much easier to war people in range but very hard to get the button on smaller kingdoms. Aggressor kingdoms shouldn't be getting the protection, if they feel they can fight someone bigger then the game doesn't need an arbitrary rule to protect them.

It seems you are taking issue with bigger kingdoms bullying you out of war rather than really taking an issue with the ability to war someone who is smaller and outfitting you. Is it really asinine to protect the integrity of the top race if it doesn't seriously hurt the rest of the server?

Us being number 1 is because we did very well against in range competition, I don't see it as okay that we can dominate those in range yet have been forced to eat three waves from smaller kingdoms because it would have cost so much to fight. That's a problem, it's not necessarily the new range restriction on war but due to how strong dicing is. Dicing is a boring growth mechanism. I'd far rather the kingdom that was able to do the best in conflicts won rather than the kingdom that did the best job avoiding fights.

[Elit]

Aggressor kingdoms shouldn't be getting the protection, if they feel they can fight someone bigger then the game doesn't need an arbitrary rule to protect them.

Its correct but almost every time aggressor is bigger kd and when they get retal game is broken. If you refer for this age only how Inso and FTF waved rage its because they are kds with knowledge how game work and used it. I''m not sure if there is way to made aggressor range. If you hit first x1 and get 2 retals who is aggressor there?