CR vs AMA

[Drug]

Finally some serious posts from ppl who matter in this case.

I am glad Maximouse admitted that making dibs in forum (especially when cf is not even expired) is smth. wrong. It was 2nd time it was done vs AMA this age, but 1st time it was done by PewPew and considering history of relations of AMA/PewPew I could understand it. What did Havoc was lame, now they paying the price for it. Thus said it does not justify dealbreaking at all.

Both Elit and Cello and now Proteus mentioned in their posts ****play Havoc and Sanc did to AMA 3 ages ago trying to justify this dealbreak with their grudge. Where was AMA's grudge towards Havoc last age when Havoc released wizards and whole AMA was happy to LL Havoc provs trying to win land crown. I don't recall any1 in AMA talking abt any grudge by that time.

Prolly Maximouse did not play last age in Havoc, but I am glad he understands now how bad is chartshaping intentional farmout. Basically what did AMA was just another form of indirect chartshaping, it would not be so bad actually if u dislike some kd, but only if it would be done w/out dealbreak.

Anyway no rulebooks are gonna be ever applied (it was tried many times in past already), coz every1 will just read those rules to their benefit. For me dealbreaking is worst sin in Utopia, but even for it ppl will always find some excuses from time to time, like it just happend now.

If it was up to me, I'd apologize to that Remote kd, like their representative already hinted here, and then apologize to Havoc and return all acres back and as much gold as possible. After that could start doing some private diplo with all involved parties. Possible it could result in some boring age end for AMA (tho not neccessary) like Rage had last age, but at least next age there would be some chances for normal age.

All I hope every1 involved learn smth. from this sad story.

P.S.
I forgot most important part: I blame it on Bishop ;)
Bring back dice, so I can outwhore every1 at mid age already and no chartshaping last week will decide any crown ;)

[KuhaN]

spot save

[Proteus]

except they are not havoc... and also may i remember that you were actually defending havoc back then ? hypocrisy at maximum where it concerns you

Havoc = CR same way you had standard in past where Sonata = Dreams. You have people from leadership of both havoc and sanc playing in havoc/cr right now...not to mention its owner/founder nick_mi. Changing your name while continuing to play in same lame fashion does not erase your wrong deeded.

What I said publicly was one thing as it concerned respecting Abs alliance and not dragging its na,e through mud but what I did privately was entirely different
- I had discussion with ASF to not be allied to Sanc next age and it was made clear
- Abs end up disbanding anyways
- After I retire as Rage monarch I had option to stay in kd and help lead and coach new leader team but chose not to because drixx make it clear he want to continue to be allied to Havoc even though there is no Abs. I left to avoid being allied to a kingdom I do not want to be associated with as they have a history of ****play and backstabbing allies.

Feel free to request private logs to validate the above as I have them.

[Uhm hoi]

-We got cheated out of a strong position to win the age and get put into a position that will have at best 1 or 2% chance to win the age.
-We want AMA out of the race as well. Not just to intra raze the acres they are taking from us (how will they get rid of the money they are taking?), but out of the race completely. They don’t deserve to even have a shot at the crown after this. Without action they would actually be in the strongest position of all KD’s competing for the crown.
- We don’t trust their word, and luckily we are not alone in that lack of trust. Their actions and words don’t match up, and even if they would, it would be the word of 2 people that deal broke to get rid of their strongest opponent. Which sane person would trust them if they get into a position that can potentially be between 70K and 100K acres away from the 2nd place?

So as a KD our goal now is very simple and clear. Make sure AMA goes down as well. We can’t stop them from taking us down, but we can at least make an effort to stop deal breakers from getting to compete for the crown either.

We hope to unite the community in this goal, because alone we are in no position to do it. So far everybody believes AMA doesn’t deserve a chance at the crown after this. It will be interesting to see how many KD’s will actually be willing to back up their words and if there will be KD’s that will try to exploit the situation and make the crown this age even more corrupted.

With the acres as they are now, your superior science and possibly wpa, you have a 1 or 2% chance to crown if AMA gets taken out of the race? You're just trying to get them gangbanged so you can take the crown anyway. Considering CR broke the deal first by serving notice early while they knew AMA had other plans, threatened to hit into war and, considering their past, probably would have hit into that war, when you ask the community who to trust, I'd rather put my trust into AMA than in CR.

[KuhaN]

Why people hate CR so much? Why people have no offense?

saD.

[unoduetre]

ghetto tier ftw

[Drug]

Why people hate CR so much? Why people have no offense?

saD.

Coz Havoc was smart enuf to get longass CFs from all kds who matter be4 age start even, so they could pump whole age having no off, no def, no tpa. So now they can just start collecting free waves from any kd they want, till they decided they can do it AMA too. Was mistake by current Havoc leadership, they should have listened to Zauper ;)

[skoyl12]

The more powerful dictates terms of diplomacy. CR managed to get in a weaker position and got punished. Leadership failed cos they hadn't predicted the possibility of a deal break.

[KuhaN]

You ****talk and threaten a KD with double hostile/hit into war that has fought 4 wars this age whilst you have done nothing all age. You make a thread week in advance to serve the notice and make your threats, threats which are real considering what you have done in the past to said KD. And now you whine because they hit you after all the taunts and threats?

but who was offense?

[KuhaN]

Coz Havoc was smart enuf to get longass CFs from all kds who matter be4 age start even, so they could pump whole age having no off, no def, no tpa. So now they can just start collecting free waves from any kd they want, till they decided they can do it AMA too. Was mistake by current Havoc leadership, they should have listened to Zauper ;)

but who was offense?

[Crunch]

Well, after some hours of sleep I guess I should post here as well. There will be a part that is just my personal view on the current situation and a part that’s my personal view on the matter of AMA vs. CR.

PERSONALY, (the broader picture)
I never cared much for grudges. I think if you go back long enough you will always find some dirt on somebody. And with the current narrow player base, basically you could blame anything from 10+ ages ago on any KD since 1 of their past members would be playing in 1 of the current top KD's now.
(for example: CR could be blamed for things, BB, AMA, Havoc, monolith, pantheon, brute force, the whole list of old ABS KD's, most of the list of the old exodus KD's, etc etc etc. did at some point in the past. But we could blame BB, AMA, Pyro, Pew2, Simians, Rage and probably several others for those same things)

If we keep going down this road it will only accomplish 2 things.
1: ****play will decide every crown from now until the day this game will die.
2: The game will die a lot faster since nobody likes an environment where nobody can be trusted anymore, and it will just cause more and more people to quit playing.

I don’t want to believe the above is anything anybody that loves this game is willing to accomplish. It’s been a downward spiral of ethics and morality now for a lot of ages with the current situation of ama deal breaking us just being like the next example in a WAY TOO LONG list already.
(and before anybody will claim otherwise. I am not a saint either. I just hope everybody else in the top realises they are not saints themselves. Everybody currently in the top has their part in the current downward spiral of ethics and moral)

I been talking to Darkie (co leader of BB with flogger) about this downward spiral and we both feel it has to stop for the good of the game in general. The 2 of us managed to look beyond the grudge feelings between BB and CR (probably 1 of the stronger grudges still present in the game), so we think others can as well. It’s just a matter of whether or not they are willing to start with a clean sheet.
Most people involved in the top say they are willing to give it a try, but several also just don’t believe it can be done because of other leaders they don’t trust. I think it only depends on whether the current leaders still playing really want a more fair playing ground or if they really only care about crowning any way possible.

The rough idea of what Darkie and I have in mind would be a sort of rulebook which all KD's involved in the top would feel comfortable with. Such a rulebook would include something like:

1: From this age onwards, the past is only the past. No more BS about what anybody did how many ages ago. (Yes that would include the current deal break ama pulls on cr. I dont mind leaving that behind me at eoa if that way more important goals get reached.)
2: No farming (like how jerks got their crown at the expense of BB/AMA that were racing for it and deserved it)
3: No deal breaking
4: No 2vs1
5: No dibs EVER. You follow your CF agreements and if your target isn’t in hostile and you got no CF with them anymore you can wave.
6: 1 on 1, anything goes. It’s up to the 2 KD's involved to either fight it out or get to some kind of CF deal.
7: If any KD that signed this breaks any of the rules listed from 2 till 6, all other KD’s are obligated to stop what they are doing and act as 1 against the KD breaking the rules.

Note: the above is just a rough sketch of what we have in mind. Please don’t start debating this in detail and especially not in here.

Darkie and I had planned to bring this up to all current leaders near eoa, but given the current situation there really wasn’t any reason to wait any longer.

PERSONALY: (the current situation)

CR has worked hard (and smart) to get into the position we were in like 18 hours ago. We took acres from Simians that some here call a tax, but in reality it’s just us waving them in exchange for a prolonged cf. That happens a few 100 times per age. Only difference between the normal waving in exchange for a CF is that we actually talked to simians prior to waving them and came to an agreement. But all that side stuff aside, it still comes down to the bigger KD waving the smaller KD and then extending the CF afterwards. How that is in any way different from what every other KD does is beyond me. We just agreed on a time that was good for both KD’s involved. Some call that lame, I call it smart.
About the “threats” we made towards AMA, they are at best just that, threats. I haven’t seen any KD that justifies deal breaks because of threats until now. If that’s the new standard, then I guess we could have broken deals with pretty much any KD in the top 15 and vice versa.
Facts are that we had a CF till yr9 with a 72h notice attached. We kept that, AMA didn’t.
Any KD that condones AMA’s current move is basically saying that threats are now a good enough reason to break deals.
Whether we like it or not, AMA has decided they think it’s fair to take us out of the race. And basically nothing we or anybody else together or alone will do can stop them from reaching their goal. With Pyro, pew2 and others as close as they are atm, any action against AMA will come too late to give us a fair shot at the crown anymore.
Am I pissed about it? No, I can honestly say I am not. Atm I am just sad that this will be the 3rd age in row were ****play will decide the crown. Just as I was sad last age when BB/AMA were cheated out of their crown. Age before that SWEA won, but I was still retired so I don’t know the whole inside story there.

I personally think it would be fair if AMA gives back all the acres and resources they took from this deal breaking, but I am very well aware AMA won’t do that.
I also think it would be fair for AMA to leave the top charts completely since any achievement they would reach from this point onward would be build upon their deal breaking right now.

Proteus has claimed AMA will intra raze the acres they are taking from us. I also saw logs where he states they will intra raze to take themselves out of the top completely.
I just wonder how their current tactics work if the above is truly their intention.
Why not raze instead of TM to begin with?
Why bother with plunders. By the time we get trained up AMA will have effectively taken us out of the race completely. And our stocks are so deep that plunders don’t stop us from training up anyways. All plunders accomplish at this point is giving AMA resources to train up with since they had no gc stocks themselves.
Why would they need to train up further if they are already trained up far enough to take us out of the race?

Conclusion:
It doesn’t add up. Their actions and their words show 2 different things.
AMA will achieve their goal and stop us from crowning no matter what happens. Their actions and words don’t line up atm (why not raze from the start, why plunder at all?) and it’s up to the rest of the KD’s to decide if they want to trust AMA’s word or not.

For CR the situation is now as followed:

-We got cheated out of a strong position to win the age and get put into a position that will have at best 1 or 2% chance to win the age.
-We want AMA out of the race as well. Not just to intra raze the acres they are taking from us (how will they get rid of the money they are taking?), but out of the race completely. They don’t deserve to even have a shot at the crown after this. Without action they would actually be in the strongest position of all KD’s competing for the crown.
- We don’t trust their word, and luckily we are not alone in that lack of trust. Their actions and words don’t match up, and even if they would, it would be the word of 2 people that deal broke to get rid of their strongest opponent. Which sane person would trust them if they get into a position that can potentially be between 70K and 100K acres away from the 2nd place?

So as a KD our goal now is very simple and clear. Make sure AMA goes down as well. We can’t stop them from taking us down, but we can at least make an effort to stop deal breakers from getting to compete for the crown either.

We hope to unite the community in this goal, because alone we are in no position to do it. So far everybody believes AMA doesn’t deserve a chance at the crown after this. It will be interesting to see how many KD’s will actually be willing to back up their words and if there will be KD’s that will try to exploit the situation and make the crown this age even more corrupted.

At the end of this way too long post I like to point out that for me personally I care more about the 1st section of this post than the 2nd section.
Getting something arranged to stop this kind of lame play from happening for a 4th age in a row (that means next age) means a lot more to me than getting even with AMA now.
Even now, I can’t even feel pissed about what happened. Just sad. Sad that this will be the 3rd age in a row something that everybody considers lame play will dictate the outcome of the crown race.
I am not even sadder than I was last age when I was just fooling around in a ghetto and it didn’t affect me personally.

Unreal how far from reality you are..

CR has been the aggressor the entire age pushing your **** play down on other kds. From the start when you doubled up cows many in the top had issues with you than.. Than you got all your CF in place and than started to relentlessly farm the ghettos kds far less than 1/5th your size. You had all age to prepare or choose to war whoever you wanted all of who would have had a disadvantage to CR.. you chose your path to war no one and continue to farm and threaten smaller kds with much disrespect.

in this time ama fought 4 back to back wars. some difficult wars which you thought they would not win and im sure hoped they would not win,

You tried to push ama around antagonize and taunt them telling them if they go to war with pyro you will hit into their hostile and not allow them to crown and you are still doing it..

you threatened ama with war us or else we will hit you into hostile and war like Fratzia did to ED blah blah blah.. ama called you out and brought it to you.. now in your mind they are at fault.. Can only hope everyone even your allies see though your lies.. If you are going to call someone else out and start a thread and try to bully them you should be prepared to war.. Why should you get more time? I don't recall you ever giving a ghetto more time before your broke cf to wave.. You were the largest kd on the server with the whole age to prepare if you wanted a real crown win.. you wanted the war all on your terms.. Your own fault for not being prepared. Shows how CR is a sub par kd and does not deserve to crown.. Why don't you war pyro? probably because you would not win that one either.. CR has made it clear you are only willing to fight a kd when you know you will win..

you maxi putting together rules or fair play is the biggest joke of all... You have always been a dirty player you deserve zero trust.. zauper is the only one in your kd that anyone would still follow and how he allowed you and other rogue players in his kd take over it maybe too late for him to preach as well..

[flogger]

What is Godly's negative crown WARP now?

[Elit]

So as a KD our goal now is very simple and clear. Make sure AMA goes down as well. We can’t stop them from taking us down, but we can at least make an effort to stop deal breakers from getting to compete for the crown either.

Why you cant stop us? You are in similar position now what we had before our wars vs pew pew and RBL, but you have much better sci/wpa. Didunt you tolds its was farming our wars. Go now war us and win it so you can win age and prove you deserve crown.

About deal break. Age your kd Sanctuary and Havoc double hostile us its cost us age win. Havoc notice was served after Sanctuary started hostile ops so you can say its was deal break too.
Next age we get deal break from Simians/Stripers/Swea. Before it in age there was other Deal breaks too.

Basically every age past few ages we loss crown from deal break or similar lame move from it. If now you loss crown same way its good pay back and you can see how bad is it.

[DonJuan]

Well, after some hours of sleep I guess I should post here as well. There will be a part that is just my personal view on the current situation and a part that?s my personal view on the matter of AMA vs. CR.

PERSONALY, (the broader picture)
I never cared much for grudges. I think if you go back long enough you will always find some dirt on somebody. And with the current narrow player base, basically you could blame anything from 10+ ages ago on any KD since 1 of their past members would be playing in 1 of the current top KD's now.
(for example: CR could be blamed for things, BB, AMA, Havoc, monolith, pantheon, brute force, the whole list of old ABS KD's, most of the list of the old exodus KD's, etc etc etc. did at some point in the past. But we could blame BB, AMA, Pyro, Pew2, Simians, Rage and probably several others for those same things)

If we keep going down this road it will only accomplish 2 things.
1: ****play will decide every crown from now until the day this game will die.
2: The game will die a lot faster since nobody likes an environment where nobody can be trusted anymore, and it will just cause more and more people to quit playing.

I don?t want to believe the above is anything anybody that loves this game is willing to accomplish. It?s been a downward spiral of ethics and morality now for a lot of ages with the current situation of ama deal breaking us just being like the next example in a WAY TOO LONG list already.
(and before anybody will claim otherwise. I am not a saint either. I just hope everybody else in the top realises they are not saints themselves. Everybody currently in the top has their part in the current downward spiral of ethics and moral)

I been talking to Darkie (co leader of BB with flogger) about this downward spiral and we both feel it has to stop for the good of the game in general. The 2 of us managed to look beyond the grudge feelings between BB and CR (probably 1 of the stronger grudges still present in the game), so we think others can as well. It?s just a matter of whether or not they are willing to start with a clean sheet.
Most people involved in the top say they are willing to give it a try, but several also just don?t believe it can be done because of other leaders they don?t trust. I think it only depends on whether the current leaders still playing really want a more fair playing ground or if they really only care about crowning any way possible.

The rough idea of what Darkie and I have in mind would be a sort of rulebook which all KD's involved in the top would feel comfortable with. Such a rulebook would include something like:

1: From this age onwards, the past is only the past. No more BS about what anybody did how many ages ago. (Yes that would include the current deal break ama pulls on cr. I dont mind leaving that behind me at eoa if that way more important goals get reached.)
2: No farming (like how jerks got their crown at the expense of BB/AMA that were racing for it and deserved it)
3: No deal breaking
4: No 2vs1
5: No dibs EVER. You follow your CF agreements and if your target isn?t in hostile and you got no CF with them anymore you can wave.
6: 1 on 1, anything goes. It?s up to the 2 KD's involved to either fight it out or get to some kind of CF deal.
7: If any KD that signed this breaks any of the rules listed from 2 till 6, all other KD?s are obligated to stop what they are doing and act as 1 against the KD breaking the rules.

Note: the above is just a rough sketch of what we have in mind. Please don?t start debating this in detail and especially not in here.

Darkie and I had planned to bring this up to all current leaders near eoa, but given the current situation there really wasn?t any reason to wait any longer.

PERSONALY: (the current situation)

CR has worked hard (and smart) to get into the position we were in like 18 hours ago. We took acres from Simians that some here call a tax, but in reality it?s just us waving them in exchange for a prolonged cf. That happens a few 100 times per age. Only difference between the normal waving in exchange for a CF is that we actually talked to simians prior to waving them and came to an agreement. But all that side stuff aside, it still comes down to the bigger KD waving the smaller KD and then extending the CF afterwards. How that is in any way different from what every other KD does is beyond me. We just agreed on a time that was good for both KD?s involved. Some call that lame, I call it smart.
About the ?threats? we made towards AMA, they are at best just that, threats. I haven?t seen any KD that justifies deal breaks because of threats until now. If that?s the new standard, then I guess we could have broken deals with pretty much any KD in the top 15 and vice versa.
Facts are that we had a CF till yr9 with a 72h notice attached. We kept that, AMA didn?t.
Any KD that condones AMA?s current move is basically saying that threats are now a good enough reason to break deals.
Whether we like it or not, AMA has decided they think it?s fair to take us out of the race. And basically nothing we or anybody else together or alone will do can stop them from reaching their goal. With Pyro, pew2 and others as close as they are atm, any action against AMA will come too late to give us a fair shot at the crown anymore.
Am I pissed about it? No, I can honestly say I am not. Atm I am just sad that this will be the 3rd age in row were ****play will decide the crown. Just as I was sad last age when BB/AMA were cheated out of their crown. Age before that SWEA won, but I was still retired so I don?t know the whole inside story there.

I personally think it would be fair if AMA gives back all the acres and resources they took from this deal breaking, but I am very well aware AMA won?t do that.
I also think it would be fair for AMA to leave the top charts completely since any achievement they would reach from this point onward would be build upon their deal breaking right now.

Proteus has claimed AMA will intra raze the acres they are taking from us. I also saw logs where he states they will intra raze to take themselves out of the top completely.
I just wonder how their current tactics work if the above is truly their intention.
Why not raze instead of TM to begin with?
Why bother with plunders. By the time we get trained up AMA will have effectively taken us out of the race completely. And our stocks are so deep that plunders don?t stop us from training up anyways. All plunders accomplish at this point is giving AMA resources to train up with since they had no gc stocks themselves.
Why would they need to train up further if they are already trained up far enough to take us out of the race?

Conclusion:
It doesn?t add up. Their actions and their words show 2 different things.
AMA will achieve their goal and stop us from crowning no matter what happens. Their actions and words don?t line up atm (why not raze from the start, why plunder at all?) and it?s up to the rest of the KD?s to decide if they want to trust AMA?s word or not.

For CR the situation is now as followed:

-We got cheated out of a strong position to win the age and get put into a position that will have at best 1 or 2% chance to win the age.
-We want AMA out of the race as well. Not just to intra raze the acres they are taking from us (how will they get rid of the money they are taking?), but out of the race completely. They don?t deserve to even have a shot at the crown after this. Without action they would actually be in the strongest position of all KD?s competing for the crown.
- We don?t trust their word, and luckily we are not alone in that lack of trust. Their actions and words don?t match up, and even if they would, it would be the word of 2 people that deal broke to get rid of their strongest opponent. Which sane person would trust them if they get into a position that can potentially be between 70K and 100K acres away from the 2nd place?

So as a KD our goal now is very simple and clear. Make sure AMA goes down as well. We can?t stop them from taking us down, but we can at least make an effort to stop deal breakers from getting to compete for the crown either.

We hope to unite the community in this goal, because alone we are in no position to do it. So far everybody believes AMA doesn?t deserve a chance at the crown after this. It will be interesting to see how many KD?s will actually be willing to back up their words and if there will be KD?s that will try to exploit the situation and make the crown this age even more corrupted.

At the end of this way too long post I like to point out that for me personally I care more about the 1st section of this post than the 2nd section.
Getting something arranged to stop this kind of lame play from happening for a 4th age in a row (that means next age) means a lot more to me than getting even with AMA now.
Even now, I can?t even feel pissed about what happened. Just sad. Sad that this will be the 3rd age in a row something that everybody considers lame play will dictate the outcome of the crown race.
I am not even sadder than I was last age when I was just fooling around in a ghetto and it didn?t affect me personally.

No no no! HAVE YOU LEARNED NOTHING?

You wanna change Top KD culture? STOP USING VERBAL CF AGREEMENTS!

Whatever done is done...but you can no longer expect that these CF are good for Utopia.

This it is a war game...and war is not civilized even in a game. Try as hard as you can but it's silly to think that a verbal promise is the only thing defending all of your acres

[Retard`]

With the acres as they are now, your superior science and possibly wpa, you have a 1 or 2% chance to crown if AMA gets taken out of the race? You're just trying to get them gangbanged so you can take the crown anyway. Considering CR broke the deal first by serving notice early while they knew AMA had other plans, threatened to hit into war and, considering their past, probably would have hit into that war, when you ask the community who to trust, I'd rather put my trust into AMA than in CR.

Funny man.

I'd put my trust in Havoc over AMA any given day.