Outside Hits into War

[noobium]

like i said, the problem isn't that interference in wars is wrong, it's that the way kingdoms can interfere in wars is unbalancing and lame, hence why it's a problem when someone can create a ghetto warrior and start razing into kingdoms for ****s and giggles. it would be less of a problem if razekill into war were not possible.

interfering with someone as their war starts, or hitting a kingdom at war for science, is not so unbalancing. it's a dick move, but there is not the incentive that there is to make ghetto provinces to grief people, nor is there an incentive for kingdoms to band together so they can always call on people to raze into war.

[Squee311]

Squee, I am going to ask you again as you seem to have missed/ignored it the last time around.

How are you exactly going to diplomacy with someone who obviously is not interested in diplomacy or is just a complete idiot? Peppie and Bukhy are absolutely right that at this point, if players want to be complete jackasses, they can just create Avian/Warriors till end of days. It does not even matter if you kill them, 24 hrs they are back and since they reside in ghetto's, there is absolutely no responsibility for players that just wish to screw other up.

Since a big crowd seems to see these razing lunatics as "honorable, courageous freedom fighters" maybe I should do just that next age as we are likely to disband anyways. Me and a pack of trolls from the KD will just raze into every war that does not tag up "trekdop's lapdogs" and pay hommage to my little flopper. How is diplomacy going to solve this if me and my gang decide to act like a bunch of whiny 10 year olds?

I understand that razing in wars did have its fair share of uses in the past, e.g. Sinners razing into a war after one of the KD's did a bunch of hits right before war start into them or when a bunch of KD's razed into Evil Dragons as they were in a staged honor farm war with Playboys. I would not even be so opposed to raze in war being available if it wasn't so extremely easy to just destroy the entire game with a bunch of retired players creating Avians all over the place.

Solutions like "New provinces/accounts cannot raze into wars etc." are good solutions that address this loophole while still even allowing the TerricK vs. Spartans **** possible.

lets look at the entire situation which peppie and you refuse to look at.

If peppie handled the diplomacy when Palem started his threat and didnt ignore it. His war this age does not get razed into by palem. By doing this Araquel never razes into Spartans FWB war. Then wow look a little bit of diplomacy in the beginning avoids the entire situation.

From what I know in the spartans situation only a CF was offered and taken in game but very little talk about outside of game mechanics. Terrick then asserted himself no deal was ever made.

So tekdrop i see both situation handled handle completely if the people involved hashed things out. The difference betwen warring tier and top tier diplomacy is simple to see. They actually speak to each other. Lesson such as this need to be taught if not its just going to move away from diplomacy at all with no real threat of being caught with your pants down.

I have not missed or ignored anything... I have covered all the basis the fact you guys want some easy way out of situations you may create is pathetic.

[Korp]

lets look at the entire situation which peppie and you refuse to look at.

If peppie handled the diplomacy when Palem started his threat and didnt ignore it. His war this age does not get razed into by palem. By doing this Araquel never razes into Spartans FWB war. Then wow look a little bit of diplomacy in the beginning avoids the entire situation.

From what I know in the spartans situation only a CF was offered and taken in game but very little talk about outside of game mechanics. Terrick then asserted himself no deal was ever made.

So tekdrop i see both situation handled handle completely if the people involved hashed things out. The difference betwen warring tier and top tier diplomacy is simple to see. They actually speak to each other. Lesson such as this need to be taught if not its just going to move away from diplomacy at all with no real threat of being caught with your pants down.

I have not missed or ignored anything... I have covered all the basis the fact you guys want some easy way out of situations you may create is pathetic.

Diplomacy isnt anything magical that can solve any issues that comes up. If you think that you never played Utopia at an more advance level. Also your issues is that you comment on things that you lack all the necssary information in, ergo making your "facts" useless.

[Squee311]

Diplomacy isnt anything magical that can solve any issues that comes up. If you think that you never played Utopia at an more advance level. Also your issues is that you comment on things that you lack all the necssary information in, ergo making your "facts" useless.

Korp I have played at a very high level. What I know is if you know how to handle yourself this issue doesn't come up and if it does you made a mistake. Period.

If you don't understand that after 50+ ages of playing the game Korp then I do not know what else to tell you.

[Bukharistan]

I think all the players in Utopia should just keep pushing for this, the more votes we get the better. As of now we have 2 possible solutions, which in combination should stop 99% of all abuse:

1. New provinces can't raze into wars for the first 7 days.
2. Minimum cap on razing reduces to 5 acres into wars.


And if this won't be changed I'll join in the random razing until they do change it --> I think we gotta start with the top-KDs, that usually gets mods moving.

[Korp]

Korp I have played at a very high level. What I know is if you know how to handle yourself this issue doesn't come up and if it does you made a mistake. Period.

If you don't understand that after 50+ ages of playing the game Korp then I do not know what else to tell you.

So you never been in alliance war, you never had been in an alliance that actioned a kd for doing something bad. Also, "very high level" i sincerly doubt that :) You seem like a nub that likes to namedrop people and pretend you are something you're not. :)

[Squee311]

So you never been in alliance war, you never had been in an alliance that actioned a kd for doing something bad. Also, "very high level" i sincerly doubt that :) You seem like a nub that likes to namedrop people and pretend you are something you're not. :)

I have been in both those situations. You know how they all ended.. Diplomacy. Just because you don't remember me Korp doesnt mean I have not been there. But you should know all of those things can be handled by diplomatic means. Get over yourself

[Korp]

I have been in both those situations. You know how they all ended.. Diplomacy. Just because you don't remember me Korp doesnt mean I have not been there. But you should know all of those things can be handled by diplomatic means. Get over yourself

So if all things can handled dy diplomatic means why did alliance wars happend, why did alliance action kingdoms etc? Using your own logic you should been using diplomacy to solve the issues!!

[Squee311]

So if all things can handled dy diplomatic means why did alliance wars happend, why did alliance action kingdoms etc? Using your own logic you should been using diplomacy to solve the issues!!

The same reason Peppie got his war razed into. Being stubborn on both sides leads to one side carrying out their action. Notice once Palem carried out his action diplomacy happened. Same thing with most actions vs kingdoms or alliance wars. You know how they end with speaking among the sides. I don't recall any alliance wars that ended in surrender without terms. Having terms is diplomacy. But then again that is exactly what this game revolves around. The ability to deal with people.

It works wonders

[noobium]

loldiplo.

[Thunder TA]

When NI warred AA many many years ago now.The diplomacy was basically end it when your tired of getting beat down and surrender. Couldnt do much else after Dax got sucker punched into a fake declare :)

[trekdrop]

Squee: I don't know the exact details in the Spartans vs. TerricK situation, nor the Palem vs. FREE fiasco, and I am not doubting that both Peppie and Bukharistan could've done things differently. But if there is a flawed mechanic stubborn people can use to annoy other players or to push to get what they want, they will.

For instance, I remember back in the old days there was no automatic war so basically the meter would go on forever.
This made waving KD's for war a huge pain as sometimes a KD would just retal back endlessly.
Now, this in itself is not a problem, it is their own right. But as a monarch, in each case, I chose to handle things first with diplomacy.

The results? Zero. After all, the other party would not be willing negotiate anything because they would simply come up with things like "We can jump you at any time the moment you get occupied with another KD" or "Good luck, we will have all our friends hit into your KD until you are weak enough to declare 3".

Wanting to move on, I was very lenient, not requesting full retals for the retals they made but just asking a single in-game CF to close relations. Yes, this meant that they could come after us later on if they chose to do so. It left everything open other than jumping my KD after a war or mid-hostile with another KD due to open relations. The other parties simply refused to deal.

So where diplomacy failed, after 72 hrs, I had no other choice than to use brute force, which ended up setting strict wave times and using NM/NS waves to start killing off players one by one. Suddenly, their attitude shifted and we were now "Bullies". Their alliances got contacted and this is the only time diplomacy became important as I explained my case carefully, stating that it is a 1 vs 1 situation where I have provided fair options to end the conflict which were ignored. Only when it became clear that the alliances were not willing to risk their reputation for a silly 1 vs 1 fight that could be avoided, the KD's backed down and send a CF.

The last monarch even had the audacity to yell after the CF how "My KD sucked balls and in a war with them we would've been farmed".

Conclusion? You can't do diplomacy with some people as some monarchs don't want to negotiate a deal. And the more inbalanced in-game mechanics are, the more likely douchebags are going to use those mechanics as leverage.

Personally, I am curious how you would've handled cases like these Squee, as from what I get, your advice is "Give into their temper tantrums", which I don't think is what you really meant.

[Palem]

Personally, I am curious how you would've handled cases like these Squee, as from what I get, your advice is "Give into their temper tantrums", which I don't think is what you really meant.

I can't speak for Squee, but waving into situations and surrendering up that many hostile points without talking to the other monarch and seeing if they'd be interested in war seems like poor planning on your part.

[trekdrop]

I can't speak for Squee, but waving into situations and surrendering up that many hostile points without talking to the other monarch and seeing if they'd be interested in war seems like poor planning on your part.

In one case it was an arranged war gone bad. In the other case, the KD had a banner up stating "War is our Fuel" or something among those lines with the arrow all the way to the right.

It was in a time where waving KD's for war was more common. Nowadays, our KD hardly waves, let alone ever give out more than 5-6 hits until we get anything back from leadership.

Waving is not optimal yes. However, 9 times out of 10 in the case of arranged wars, the other KD try to weasel out deals or dealbreak by hitting early, stealing gc's when it was discussed nothing to start, arrange a start date just for the other KD to plunder outside and opblock for 24 hrs, etc. In pretty much all cases, we let it slide as we want a war and we are already committed, and if the KD's are that insecure they need to douchebag for them to have a chance to win, then so be it.

According to the logic on the forum, I am in my full right to start chasing all these KD's with a gang of small Avian Warriors. Come to think of it, me and A-team would have to razekill almost 50% of the server. Of course, that won't be without consequence either so we end up with bunch of Avians razing each other off. Is that really what we want? :)

[itchm]

I'm initially inclined to agree with Palem here, in that one should be able to sort these things out with diplo.

However, one has to remember that we are playing a game, and therefore the kind of consequences that might be expected in real world diplo don't often apply to trolls. Thus there needs to be a mechanic addressing it. For that reason, I particularly like the idea that a province is disallowed to raze into war for the first week OOP.