Outside Hits into War

[Bukharistan]

Squee: I don't know the exact details in the Spartans vs. TerricK situation, nor the Palem vs. FREE fiasco, and I am not doubting that both Peppie and Bukharistan could've done things differently. But if there is a flawed mechanic stubborn people can use to annoy other players or to push to get what they want, they will.

Think both situations are different. I just returned to the game, didn't really know the surroundings yet, leading to a lot of troubles during my first age as monarch again (including not being able to control my own players, to which Trekdrop can attest). We waved Terrick's KD, they demanded full retals but no war, we declined that offer, kept raping em until they made up a story about a hospitalized King and acted all victim. I believed them, trusted them, and gave them a CF against the wishes of my own KD. We then went to war, and they razed us into that war. Thing is, AFTER that situation, there were no more troubles. Bad diplo --> consequences --> solution. Terrick did not randomly create accounts all over the server to hit into any future war we had. He simply used the provinces he had at his disposition, which could've been raze-killed by us in exchange. In this case I opted for more diplo, but, as unreasonable as Terrick is, he could be reasoned with. In these kind of situations there are at least ways to deal with it --> war them, raze them back, raze them next age. The random account creation doesn't allow for this, simply because the owner has nothing to lose.

We all know the details of Palem-FREE, it's on a whole different level, and so were the razes into FWB when we just warred them. There are razes from random provinces without any repercussions for the perpetrators (the random provinces mean **** to them anyways).

[Squee311]

So where diplomacy failed, after 72 hrs, I had no other choice than to use brute force, which ended up setting strict wave times and using NM/NS waves to start killing off players one by one. Suddenly, their attitude shifted and we were now "Bullies". Their alliances got contacted and this is the only time diplomacy became important as I explained my case carefully, stating that it is a 1 vs 1 situation where I have provided fair options to end the conflict which were ignored. Only when it became clear that the alliances were not willing to risk their reputation for a silly 1 vs 1 fight that could be avoided, the KD's backed down and send a CF.

If you were offering a deal and they wanted to refuse it you are within your right you bully them if you have power. But there is times when people want want to get out scott free and that doesn't always sit right with people. It happens you have to make choices and think what is worth getting and giving up. It is part of utopia and to raze a war kingdom outside of a war only aids them unless you are killing the prov OOW you are jsut land dropping it. You could use learns or massacres but they will be sent right back. The best tool to hold over a warring tier kingdom to kept them in check is to threaten what they hold dear. Notice how fast FREE and any other war kingdom changed their tune once it happened.

Noobium mocks diplomacy the thing is Diplomacy is not just words like everyone thinks it is. It is based on actions and your reputation to follow through with said actions. So doing the actual action is sometimes the best diplomatic resolution. So yea "loldip"

As for massive province creation There is nothing wrong with a player restarting and taking on his personal vendetta. If he recruits friends to do the same it is in his cause. Unless you can prove that the FWB razes were done by one guy running multiple accts i do not think their is any reason for action. That said the only action that would be needed to be made is improving multiple accounts which according to Bishop is pretty top notch.

[noobium]

what diplomacy do you expect to do when the game mechanics are flawed in a way that favors acting like an asshole for the lulz (as if people don't have enough motivation)?
if it was just people doing landgrabs or learn/plunder into war that would be slightly different, it's the ability to razekill into war that makes the game thoroughly unpleasant unless someone licks boot with enough people.

[Palem]

If that's the case why hasn't this been a game breaking issue for the past 60 ages?

Fact of the matter: This isn't that big of an issue and affects a very small amount of the player base.

[noobium]

For the first 30+ ages people could razekill in war, and military was much different than it is now.
Right now it only doesn't happen because of a (very fragile) pact between players not to do it.

[Squee311]

what diplomacy do you expect to do when the game mechanics are flawed in a way that favors acting like an asshole for the lulz (as if people don't have enough motivation)?
if it was just people doing landgrabs or learn/plunder into war that would be slightly different, it's the ability to razekill into war that makes the game thoroughly unpleasant unless someone licks boot with enough people.

I can make an argument that if you disallow said action you will see more kingdoms outright throwing their weight around without fear of repercussions. Both sides have their flaws but to target razing into wars because people view it as a 1v1 is just idiotic and not at all what the game is about. The simple fact a war kingdom cares not about their land outside of war but to hit them inside their war for their shady tactics towards you is sometimes the only tool a kingdom has to stop a pure bullying situation.

If you piss someone off enough to want to raze kill into your war you had to of done something they consider an huge offense. Something that if you maybe took 80% of what you gained instead of 100% of it and showed them and portion of compassion when you clearly have an advantage they might not feel the need to act against you. don't be stupid and don't be greedy and stop assuming everyone will just give you what you want. That is the problem its not diplomacy as a whole its the fact that half the player base doesn't grasp diplomacy.

Don't blame the system or diplomacy blame he individuals that fail to use it correctly

[Bukharistan]

To reiterate, we are NOT NOT NOT against razing. But because this game is now predominantly played my fat lazy wife dominated nerds with kids that just want to relax mist if the age apart from a few wars, we need to adjust the game to that. Furthermore, there is a growing segment of players not taking this game rrally seriously anymore, playing for lulz and giggles, trying to mess around and intentionally destroying gameplay of those willing to play seriously. Sure, let them create an acxount start of the age. Buildnit up for a few weeks, and raze into wars. But oclnce its killed off, the same player shouldnt be able to continue the same stuff 24 hours later.

[Squee311]

To reiterate, we are NOT NOT NOT against razing. But because this game is now predominantly played my fat lazy wife dominated nerds with kids that just want to relax mist if the age apart from a few wars, we need to adjust the game to that. Furthermore, there is a growing segment of players not taking this game rrally seriously anymore, playing for lulz and giggles, trying to mess around and intentionally destroying gameplay of those willing to play seriously. Sure, let them create an acxount start of the age. Buildnit up for a few weeks, and raze into wars. But oclnce its killed off, the same player shouldnt be able to continue the same stuff 24 hours later.

He has every right to recreate an account and play it how he sees fit. If he is making multiple accounts and running them at he same time you have a gripe. But one guy remaking a prov after being killed isn't an issue at all. There is also 0 way 1 province can RK even into a war. 4 hits a pop 5 if warrior. That province being hit should have other chained targets to take decent acres from. Now if he has a team of friends then the party he is razing obviously pissed off the wrong person. Its just a silly stipulation in which people will use against razing period since there is a version of "not razing into wars".

Its not worthwhile to even code this with the other issues in the game that could be spent being recoded.

[Palem]

But one guy remaking a prov after being killed isn't an issue at all. There is also 0 way 1 province can RK even into a war.

This is not true.

Its not worthwhile to even code this with the other issues in the game that could be spent being recoded.

Agree. Cost/benefit is not good enough to spend time on.

[Bukharistan]

He has every right to recreate an account and play it how he sees fit. If he is making multiple accounts and running them at he same time you have a gripe. But one guy remaking a prov after being killed isn't an issue at all.

Isn't this what the debate is all about? Right now he has the "right" to do so, and we want to change the rules to make that impossible.

But one guy remaking a prov after being killed isn't an issue at all. There is also 0 way 1 province can RK even into a war.

Ask FWB about this. Let me tell you a nice story from our last war. At one point, we had an enemy chained prov on 170 acres after incoming acres. I completely messed up my hits (first time being chained in years, always play TM lol), and was about to get ass-raped. You know what happened? Just before he could send out he was razed for a further 75 acres, forcing him to:

1. Release half his offense.
2. He was completely out of NW-range of any of our provinces.

This basically took the province out of the war. On 2 other occasions a province from FWB was razekilled.


If this rule isn't changed, I swear I will find a group of people large enough to completely ruin every war fought next age, until the devs decide to change it. And I'd be doing nothing illegal there :)

[Squee311]

Isn't this what the debate is all about? Right now he has the "right" to do so, and we want to change the rules to make that impossible.



Ask FWB about this. Let me tell you a nice story from our last war. At one point, we had an enemy chained prov on 170 acres after incoming acres. I completely messed up my hits (first time being chained in years, always play TM lol), and was about to get ass-raped. You know what happened? Just before he could send out he was razed for a further 75 acres, forcing him to:

1. Release half his offense.
2. He was completely out of NW-range of any of our provinces.

This basically took the province out of the war. On 2 other occasions a province from FWB was razekilled.


If this rule isn't changed, I swear I will find a group of people large enough to completely ruin every war fought next age, until the devs decide to change it. And I'd be doing nothing illegal there :)

1. so you don't want razes into wars at all then? Because you in one statement said razes into wars are fine... but a guy who just created his prov or recreated cannot do it? Make up your and be straight. There is 0 reason a single prov you may piss off can't target your kingdom and when he does and you convince his kingdom to kill him off that he should not be allowed to recreate and continue.

2. Was he the only province razing in? Because I am fairly sure he had help? I never said one province can't cause a Major issue but to RK the province has to be hit down fairly far by the one kingdom to begin with.

3. Go ahead Bart so far this issue has not been outside of people going after individuals or kingdoms for a reason. You would have 0 reason to act against any kingdom you target. You in fact would be the person bringing to life the d-bag scenario to do it just for fun. Until you can name me one situation in which the razes into wars did not have some sort of reason the entire issue is just blowing smoke.

[Bukharistan]

1. so you don't want razes into wars at all then?

Are you delirious?

Because you in one statement said razes into wars are fine... but a guy who just created his prov or recreated cannot do it?

This. If you knew I said that, I don't understand your first comment.

There is 0 reason a single prov you may piss off can't target your kingdom and when he does and you convince his kingdom to kill him off that he should not be allowed to recreate and continue.

It's your decision to disregard all the arguments we came up with it, you can disagree with it, but to say there are 0 reasons when there have been plenty put forward isn't kosher.

but to RK the province has to be hit down fairly far by the one kingdom to begin with.

We chained to 100- acres.

You would have 0 reason to act against any kingdom you target. You in fact would be the person bringing to life the d-bag scenario to do it just for fun.

I would have plenty of reason. The people playing this game agree with the code of conduct of the devs. Respawning accounts for outside razes are part of that code of conduct as it is now. So every player is guilty, until the mechanics change.

[Palem]

Relevant:

[Bukharistan]

Can't view it. Anyways, according to Squee it would be justified now that I, knowing the location of his Kingdom and slightly annoyed by his comments here, would stop playing in Spartans, then create a new account with the sole purpose of ruining his age :D

[Palem]

You are free to do whatever you want with your province, just as Sweetums is allowed to move their business where ever they want. However, don't throw your temper tantrum and attempt to hold the game hostage because you didn't get what you wanted and say it's because you care and want to improve the game.