Sheister vs Sampuan

[Lestat]

I'm a rube and even I saw that coming.

[citadela01]

This is a tricky situation. On the one hand you have the whore- (and historically also the war-) tiers imperative that no conflict is over until both parties says it is. The goal is to win the age, not to contend with a simple war win. B2B is strategy, and a legit one. Always has been. On the other you have the warring tier having long surrendered the growth meta, and in so doing changed the war meta in its tier. Wars are no longer played for profit, but for winning another point on the score board. These two metas mix poorly...

FS "loose acre" strategy (zaupers simplification) can only rule supreme in a game where growth charts, future positioning, long term oow strategy is nullified in favor of a meta where nothing in the game matters, but the current and ongoing war. Think of that as you will. I find the game to be more enjoyable both to play and observe with added complexity - and the "new" wartier meta to be rather dull. But that's me.

The meta has, no matter what I think of it, changed though. I suspect more players will think of Pyro as the bad ones here. Since that's how most of the war kingdoms have played it in quite some time now.

So you could argue that Pyro, not playing in the whore tier this age, should adhere to the wartier meta and admit defeat as the wartier sees it. Or you could argue that for Pyro being a child of both tiers, acknowledges the added complexity open ended conflicts brings and wants to introduce that to the war-tier, to the benefit of all(?) ;)

Ppl are overthinking it I feel. This is not meta, resource or whatnot matter.

They lost unloosable war and now need to push us around from position of strength to ... i dont know ... prove something ? pamper their ego ?
w/e ... nothing we can rly do other than sit tight and wait it out, when they decide they had enough we both get to walk away with one friend less.

[Tadpole]

Ppl are overthinking it I feel. This is not meta, resource or whatnot matter.

They lost unloosable war and now need to push us around from position of strength to ... i dont know ... prove something ? pamper their ego ?
w/e ... nothing we can rly do other than sit tight and wait it out, when they decide they had enough we both get to walk away with one friend less.

Since I don't talk to Pyro nor FS players at the moment, in my IRC hiatus - I can't comment on motives. But you could be right of course. It's very easy to read it like that; especially given some of the Pyro players less than eloquent retorts in here ;)

That said however, there is a meta level to all of this. Whatever the motives. In the past, tactical WDs were very common, and without diplo you could never secure yourself from being hit post war. It is mostly a thing of the past for the war-tier these days - but FS very successful niche, that allows wins despite huge size discrepancies to their disadvantage - kind of actualize a debate on why the meta should look one way and not the other. It's mostly absent from the war-tier since war kingdoms have mostly agreed that every war is an effectual reset of the age - the war has one goal, war. But often when whore kd's step down to the war tier, that meta is out the window (Pyro now, or CR a few ages ago for instance).

Then of course, we have the argument that for most kingdoms this doesn't matter. A win very often nets you a favorable position for a return match. FS is a tie-breaker here. Which is why its interesting to have this debate in connection to this war :)

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

growth meta was thrown off the window, the moment we agreed to set an acre cap and fight it out.. they could do what they are doing now before we even agreed to war, and its on the table for the sole reason of salvaging whatever ego/pride they have left, after eating every single word they have said about how big they have won the war..

i have also seen them claiming nesta had told us that b2b would happen, but this is a huge lie.. nesta thought he won the war, and we would be farming their sci to beat some other kds easily - he was too blind to see that we were only and only playing to win - so he threatened us with not cfing after fight if we tried doing mass learns and wd.. it didnt go that route though, and we took the win instead of their sci, so here we are..

[Smitty87]

If FS "won" the war then like Tadpole said they should be in a more favourable position.

Running a TM heavy setup you've got to expect things like this to happen.

Don't blame Pyro. They won the war +20k acres and "lose". I myself don't see that as losing , I see it as a tactical wd to initiate a b2b

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

If FS "won" the war then like Tadpole said they should be in a more favourable position.

Running a TM heavy setup you've got to expect things like this to happen.

Don't blame Pyro. They won the war +20k acres and "lose". I myself don't see that as losing , I see it as a tactical wd to initiate a b2b

im pretty sure everyone can claim themselves the winner of a war with this logic, as far as i remember, free also won all their wars because they ended up gaining honor on all of them..

[Band of Horses]

Flash back to end of last age drama with FS...

[Tadpole]

im pretty sure everyone can claim themselves the winner of a war with this logic, as far as i remember, free also won all their wars because they ended up gaining honor on all of them..

Not everyone, right? I mean, most wars end up with one party up in both acres and honor...

Also, wouldn't gaining honor from a WD be a win if it meant an honor crown? Isolating a war from any other game context is tricky. I know many kingdoms in the war-tier is trying to, which is fine I guess. But the game used to be more complex, and dumbing the game down needn't necessarily be the "right" or "morally just" way to go...

edit: To clarify. I think most players agree with your stance Francis. Not the whore tier of course, but the majority of players who's been part of shaping the non-growth meta. That the point of any war is the war, and nothing but the war. That viewpoint is however a "new" one, you're effectively arguing against tradition. Rightly or not.

[Aranfein]

Citadela with that comment I can't help but think back to last age when you completely destroyed a kd just course you could from a favourable position, and then FS answer was "grow and take it back".

This is not to have a go at FS but to show you why I didn't like the way you played it last age, bullying a smaller kd for their honour just because you could.

[Band of Horses]

Citadela with that comment I can't help but think back to last age when you completely destroyed a kd just course you could from a favourable position, and then FS answer was "grow and take it back".

ding ding ding, was my thought and post moments ago. I love how everything comes back around

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

Not everyone, right? I mean, most wars end up with one party up in both acres and honor...

Also, wouldn't gaining honor from a WD be a win if it meant an honor crown? Isolating a war from any other game context is tricky. I know many kingdoms in the war-tier is trying to, which is fine I guess. But the game used to be more complex, and dumbing the game down needn't necessarily be the "right" or "morally just" way to go...

its good that you brought up the context part - because i just cant see the context here, and this is the main part of the discussion imo.. we have no problems with getting waved or not, we have been waved countless of times and its part of the game.. the interesting part of the situation is, pyro doesnt seem to have a context rly - they just want to be the 'winner', and trying to make up some ultimate goal out of thin air to claim the title.. im still asking though, what is that goal? take 20k acres? take us down to 10k acres kdwide? razekill 5 of our provs? what is it?

[Aranfein]

Francis maybe it's your honour and science they want, and they are in position to take it by force, so why not to climb up the honour charts?

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

Citadela with that comment I can't help but think back to last age when you completely destroyed a kd just course you could from a favourable position, and then FS answer was "grow and take it back".

This is not to have a go at FS but to show you why I didn't like the way you played it last age, bullying a smaller kd for their honour just because you could.

im pretty sure noone in fs is bitter because they 'wave' us, and im amazed to see ppl think that for some reason.. it gets wierd when they raze etc though, what is the point here?

[Swagger]

My guess would be they want to take as much honour off FS since they know that's FS's main objective most ages.

[Aranfein]

Stops you from opping them back and taking honour, maybe softening you for their smaller provs that lost a lot?

Raze puts you in size range of their smaller core that can hit to gain honour too though. I can see the strategy of razing if that's their goal, if not then I don't know.