If you want to buff sages without the automatic points or cost reduction, maybe give them +10-20% gains on learns.
Printable View
If you want to buff sages without the automatic points or cost reduction, maybe give them +10-20% gains on learns.
not in the time i played there. shep didnt have that bonus, and they took it with Orcs. running lower farms(1-2%), training like animals. It had immunity to some stuff, i cant recall which. Prolly storm, drought and plague. its almost like a UD no food bonuns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
Immunity to dragons is actually very useful. 5 days max with dragon? Is your kd a whoring or warring? I sure never got only 5 days. getting 1-2 drag on hostile, 4-5 in war...is a lot of troops and money to retrain,and when u decide to tank it, you get full penality, id say its very useful, specially to Attacker heavy kds. Some ppl would argue that then, the opposite kd wont have to spend on dragon. But we all know that its better to fund and send, then kill and retrain.
What I feel quite certain is the Sage won't be boosted back again. For me it is quite clear for what I have seen, try have a look again, who else have the same feeling as this as mine?
- Look at Elf 50% and Hafler 50%, and then look at the reduce to 30% of Faery
- and then the lost of CS from Elf
- the lost of population from Hafler
- the lost of Mystic Aura
- the lost of WS to Undead
- the lost of Human 30% income
- the lost of Avian strong defence strength
- the lost of Dwarf Fog (a long time ago)
What does these changes tell you?
What I feel now is no race are meant to be able to turtle as effectively as before. Every races has a weakness which is so obvious to be seen now and to be broken, as they were design to be meant to be broken, and everyone is getting nervous and uneasy about it because the race they had known a long ago has become unsafe for themselves.
Thus bonuses like giving free science per acre or reduce science cost, which can enable a prov pump faster so they can defend themselves better in order for them to turtle, this is less likely will be happened, because I feel this is what the development team wanted. No more turtling is encouraged, no absolute defence from the past playing styles will be your safeguard, you have to go out and fight on the front, share the joy of gaining and the risk of losing together at the same time.
Any suggestions of changes that can lead to make a race to turtle more effectively will less likely to be taken, that's what I feel. The changes are concentrated mostly on offensive matters, less on defensive matters, instead some defensive matters have even been taken away for good. This is exactly what I feel, does anyone here feel the same as me too?
I hope the new rev will come in soon enough. The age is ending and the players would need some time to discuss with their kd what to plan with the next age.
Why not fall back to the basics and look at the established definitions of each race and match traditional fantasy attributes /traits to them?
I?ll try to lay this out as best I can and define how I see it and why. This will be done by using the definitions from the Utopia Guide and then picking out key values and matching in-game mechanics .
Race Changes
-AVIANS
Key Values:
1) Avians have the unique ability to fly.
2) Their natural wilderness lifestyle and speed make them efficient and powerful warriors
3) hit and run tactics means they cannot conquer as much land as other races.
4) natural wilderness lifestyle and speed make them efficient and powerful warriors
Attribute Placement and why:
1) Speed. I would estimate a winged humanoid could move approx. 20-50% faster than a normal humanoid. 35% is a nice split.
2) Natural wilderness lifestyle implicates lower population and relying on foraged food.
3) Gains are reduced due to tactics.
4) Their Elites need to be adjusted, based on what we know is most offensive powerful (9/x) and defensively powerful ( x/6).
Avian
Bonuses:
-35% Attack Time
Penalty:
-10 Population
-10% Food consumption
- 10% attack gains
No Access to Stables
Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Griffins (5/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Harpies (0/6)
* Elite Unit: Drake (8/3)
-DWARVES:
Key Values:
1) by far the most technologically advanced race in Utopia
2) have become excellent at building and using their land
3) takes them longer to complete similar projects by other races though it provides some protection from being overwhelmed in attacks
4) constitution (read stout and loud) hinders their thievery ability
5) Overall, Dwarves make good Attackers with minor magic abilities who can last in wars
Attribute placement and why:
1) Tech. BE should be significantly higher than all races
2) Building, forging, & stonemasonry come natural to a dwarf
3) Construction is slower, no acceleration
4) Thief ability/ops reduced
5) Fair warriors with natural resistance to magic
Dwarf
Bonuses:
+ 20% BE
Free Building Construction
Can use credits to raze buildings
-20% Spell Damage from enemy (Instant Spells)
Penalty:
Accelerated Construction not available
Access to basic thievery operations only (neutral relations ops)
Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Warriors (5/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Axemen (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Berserker (7/5)
-ELVES:
Key Values:
1) An intelligent group of individuals
2) known for their magical abilities and grant a high priority to the research of the arcane powers
3) able to regenerate their mana at a surprisingly quick rate
4) but are very versatile and can be used for attacking also
5) Traditionally, known for low constitution, defense is lower.
Attribute placement and why:
1) Science will naturally be a little higher than other races.
2) Naturalists at Arcanum, they need no runes
3) Elves are mystical creatures that are conduits of magic power
4) Fragile and thin, they lack in physical strengths
Elves
Bonuses:
+5% Science Effectiveness
No Runes Needed
+1 mana in war
Penalty:
No Access to Dungeons
Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Rangers (5/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Archers (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Elf Lord (6/3)
-FAERY:
Key values:
1) Faeries excel at magic
2) subterfuge (largely due to their small size)
3) often known as the most peaceful of the Utopian races
4) considered fragile but noble
Attribute placement and why:
1) They are good at magic. So they are more destructive, but not near the arcane masters as Elves.
2) They are devious and small, able to do rogue-ish damage
3) They have little need for healthcare, for they are peaceful lot.
4) Honorable creatures, although small, bigger population
Faery
Bonuses:
+30% Magic Effectiveness
+30% Thievery Effectiveness
+10% Bonuses from Honor
+10 Population
Penalty:
No Access to Hospitals
No Access to Stables
Offensive Specialist Strength -1
Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Magicians (4/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Druids (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Beastmasters (3/8, $1000, 8.0 nw)
-HALFINGS
Key Values:
1) famous for their quickness and Thievery skills
2) Their small stature makes them mediocre warriors, but also creates many unique advantages, petite size also results in the natural ability to substantially increase their effectiveness on certain thievery operations.
3) A race resembling tiny humans
Attribute Placement and why:
1) Halfings are notorious for thief abilities and should reflect it.
2) Mediocre means average at best
3) They are similar as human, so they should share the penalty.
Halflings
Bonuses:
+1 stealth
Espionage operations are 100% accurate in war
- 50% thief cost
Penalty:
- 20% Magic Effectiveness
- 1 Offensive Specialist Strength
Other Information:
* Soldiers: 2/2
* Offensive Specialist: Strongarms (5/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Slingers (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Brutes (5/6)
-HUMANS
Key Values:
1) most scholarly and noble of the races greatest interest in learning
2) considered a greedy and selfish bunch with very little magical ability but humans do know how to make money extremely well.
3) pretty versatile and prob. Most common race in the Utopia.
Attribute placement and why:
1) Their curiosity drives innovation and science
2) Better merchant abilities
3) Well balanced race and greater population
Humans
Bonuses:
+15% Science Effectiveness
+ 30% income
+10% Population
Penalty:
-25% Magic Effectiveness
+20% Exploration Costs
Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Swordsmen (5/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Archers (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Knight (7/4)
-ORCS
Key Values:
1) most evil of the races, the Orcs are cruel, selfish, and arrogant
2) Lovers of destruction and chaos, they are one of the most ferocious and efficient warriors on the planet
3) their bloodthirsty nature, they require little time to draft and train troops
4) side effect of this is their lack of foresight in defending the lands they conquer
5) abilities in the arts of Magic and Thievery leave much to be desired
6) low sense of honour
Attribute placement and why:
1) They like to ravish lands, to gain ground
2) Being most efficient, they have best elite
3) Naturals to fighting, recruitment is not a factor
4) While strong, defensively average
5) Non-magical creatures for the most part
6) There is only rage and war, little honor to behold
Orcs
Bonuses:
+20 % gains
+25% Enemy Casualties on Attacks
Can train elites with credits
No Draft Costs
-30% Training Costs
Penalty:
-50% Combat Instant Spell Damage and Sabotage Damage
- 10% building efficiency
-50% honour
+40% Science Cost
Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Goblins (5/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Trolls (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Ogre (9/2)
-UNDEAD
Key Values:
1) unnatural species with amazingly unique abilities
2) rotting to pieces and carry the plague
3) zombie-like nature (their brains are literally falling apart) makes it difficult for them to understand the arts of science
Attribute placement and why:
1) Undead are unnatural phenomena and require animation by necromantic means
2) Naturally hard to kill and normal weapons do little damage, they take less losses.
3) Rotting flesh, level drains, and horror strike the enemy deeply, thus the plague
4) Undead are hungry?for brains!
The Undead
Bonuses:
Animate Dead spell always active
-50% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Successful land attacks convert specialists to elites
Spreads and is immune to The Plague
No food needed
Penalty:
- 25% science effectiveness
Access to basic thievery operations only (neutral relations ops)
Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Skeletons (5/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Zombies (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Ghoul (9/3)
Personality Changes
The Merchant
+30% Income
-50% Money Losses on Plunder Attacks
Immunity to all Income Penalties (Riots, Plagues, etc.)
The Sage
+ 20% Science effectiveness
- 20% Book Costs
-20% Research Time
-75% Losses on Learn Attacks
Every 4 Acres of land produces 1 Science Book per Hour
The Rogue
+1 Stealth recovery per tick
Access to all thievery operations, including 3 unique to rogues: Greater Arson, Assassinate Wizards and Propaganda
Thieves Dens are twice as effective (subject to DBE)
The Mystic
Access to Meteor Showers
All Guilds and Towers are twice as effective
+ 50% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
+50% Spell Duration (For Duration Spells Only)
+1 mana per tick in War
The Warrior
+20% Enemy Casualties (on attack or defense)
15% more OME in war
+ 50% bonuses from honor
The Tactician
+1 General
Enhanced Conquest range
-15% Attack Time
-50% Land Losses when Ambushed
The Cleric
- 50% Your Military Casualties (on attack or defense)
Immune to The Plague
The Shepherd
Land generates 4 bushels of food per acre daily
Immune to Droughts, Storms, the Plague and Dragons.
***I didnt take time to do the spells per race, but Meteor Shower should only be available to a personality (Mystic).
long time fan of the game(started playing Earth back in 1998), just my 2 cents.
I know, that doesnt mean its not achievable and it doesnt mean maxing up is hard dude. Dwarves easily could pull it off. actually, all races besides Orcs can pull it off. Most buildings have a high bonus per %. Getting the max isnt that hard. Limits was there to prevent abuse AND because there is only so much a build could really help into a category. Hospitals for instance, cannot prevent all deathsQuote:
Originally Posted by coboss
With the Warriors + 15% Off and advanced conquest, it'll be even easier for faeries to get broken + also add chances of contracting plague faeries IMO are quite nerfed...Quote:
Originally Posted by mjonte
Judging by your post you don't like faeries and run attackers? Orc has Reflect Magic to counter this so the faeries will need to waste added mana getting MV's to get it off + as a heavy hitting kingdom surely the first rule should be your attackers elites are always out so you don't get chained at home in or outside war from a) faeries MS and the opposition kingdom members attackers.Quote:
Originally Posted by crease
I think the developers should make it faeries only and just give us natures blessing and fertile lands so we can live in peace.
Actually the chance of a big Fae being broken in war is very low unless he was softened up during hostileQuote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
The only counter I can see from all of this is give Warrior / Tactician / Cleric:
-25% honor losses from Thievery ops and spells.
Or introduce a new building which is available to them called "Hall of Honor" or something with maximum -30% honor from T/M/attacks but make it so that they need to run sensible number to achieve this like how banks are capped at x income before theyre useless when you build over them etc.
*Edit*
I'm an undead cOunt... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Landro
Gratz, I'm Human Count but I was referring to ranks above Count so Marquis or better. I could have worded it betterQuote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
I just wanted to use my joke. Well done to you... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
Some people have no sense of humor.Quote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
Back on topic...
If Avians are expected to make anything of the proposed +40% Thievery Damage, they at least need their 6-point Defense Specs back in order to run the TpA needed to make any use of it.
Faery got a pretty hard nerf - which was needed. Some argue it's too much while others argue it isn't enough, which leads me to feel that it's just about right as-is.
Halfers need to retain Aggression and Quick Feet, and even that leaves them fairly weak due to losing their Population bonus.
Humans need at least a 6-point offensive Elite (even with the Population bonus), their extra damage for Spells & Ops needs to be toned down a ways, and they should retain their Income bonus.
And if anyone has Reflect Magic, it should be Elves - it simply does not fit with Orcs.
Popular opinion has nothing to do with whether a race is OP or not. Especially when some people have a better grasp of the game mechanics then others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twyla
Why would you want to hit a big Faery during war?
Why are people still crying about Faeries having high defense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
Sorry Landro, have to disagree...all it takes is one person in your KD to be able to break a fay and its toast. Looking at some of the elites with these changes....orc/tact or orc/warrior seems like a real good fay killer not to mention nothing a bounce wave cant fix :P
People who can't figure out how to disable a Faery province want the Faery race to be an acre farm while the people who actually did the homework see that the Faery race can't really do their job as a T/M now since they will basically have to go Faery/Mystic or Faery/Rogue (Not as popular) to gain the extra stealth per tick (meaning no automatic +25% science effectiveness bonus). Then the reduction in the racial TPA/WPA bonus by 20% while still having the -10% population penalty means they'll have to allocate more population to thieves and wizards to get the same TPA/WPA. The Faery has to train 14% more thieves and 14% more wizards now and if they want to run a defense where only Orcs/Undeads can break them then it will leave Faeries with around 4000 peasants (Atleast half of what other races have in peasant rank and the rest can still attack). If the -10% population penalty is reduced to -5% population penalty or eliminate the population penalty completely while making their elite a 1/8 with a -1 off spec penalty. This allows to keep military for ambushing attacks while forcing Faeries to choose between offense or defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz
My view is make it one of the following:
-5% population. Change nothing on bonuses and elite values
No population penalty with Faery elites 1/8 and off specs at 4/0 to force the Faery race to sacrifice defense if they want to have any offense.
There are a couple more options that will be good with the Orc/personality trait or atleast from what I saw anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azartyn
Quote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
Im not a fan of faeries next age sure.... They are incompetent thieves and have less mana and lower wpa than an elf. However i was making a point that this age you could make 14 masses to remove t/m power. Next age you can mass ONLY 1 prov effectively with 14 points then faerys are safe to whore up honour safely ub. How you understood that i don't like faeries from that obvious imba i picked up on is silly? I basically said faeries were safer than this age, and you said roflolololol you must not like faeries?
In what universe is RM on orc a counter to faeries..... a faery does little more than cast MS and MV with mana. 1 race inevitably has RM up so it does nothing to a faery.... cupid stunt. RM is a recoil mechanic when an orc is being shelled.
Faeries shouldnt be hit for land in war - it does not hurt them. It increases their TPA and WPA, allowing them to be even more effective. You're better off ignoring them and focusing your efforts on other attackers. That is my point. Why the **** do you want to hit Faeries in war for land?
Unless you gaive back Avians 6 Def.Spec then you may as well remove them from race list.
They can no way compete against Undead or Orc as heavy attackers. They can only be A/T
Elves and Dwarves seems to be much better hybrids so far.
more TPA means even less Def.Spec (considering they need to keep up their leet number similar to this age for breaking).
Def.Spec nomore having def.bonus + leets totally not contributing to Def + less Def.spec spared for making TPA = suicidal
any effective Avian province can be turned to dust in 1 day of war with little to no effort. Without changes we wont see any avians around next Age.
PS: I am really happy with the changes to dwarf, but I hoped BE bonus would be higher than %10.
Who said anything about hitting them for land...I dont know about you but I would massacre fays before raising their TPA/WPA anytime. If you want to sit and let a fay MS or FB the hell outta you go for it...me personally...Im taking them out by massacre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz
OK finally got chance to think through the 2nd round of changes so hear we go! to discuss the numbers on the races i am going to split them into their designed rolls, then discuss weather or not they have the power to be useful/successful within that roll and then finally give my suggestions as to how to tweak the underpowered/overpowered races.
GROUPING & ANALYSIS
Pure attackers- Orcs & Undeads, Both races suit this roll very well boasting 9 point offense elites and unique ability's to help sustain that offense throughout a war. As well as individualized bounces to their attacks and negatives to T/M aspirations. Overall both races seem very capable and fairly balanced at fulfilling the same roll without having the same "feel". A+ hear i wouldn't change them at all.
T/M- Faerys & Humans(maybe? I'm still not 100% on what your trying to do with humans), Faerys are perfect for this roll and definitely have the power to get it done. I thought the faerys where a bit overpowered last age but with the reduction in TPA & WPA bonuses in addition to giving other races T/M bonuses i think it balances them out nice. A+ to faerys i wouldn't change em, I will talk about humans last as i think they are all wonky.
Power hybrids (a/M & a/T)- Elfs seem well suited as A/M's with a slight lean more towards the M then the A in A/M as well as being able to play a pure mage capable of even casting on faerys at the cost of of attack power and thievery ability/defense. All the same could be said about Halfers just in terms of Thief power instead of magic. However i feel that both races are a bit underpowered with Elfs being the stronger of the two. I ran a halfer/merchant A/T this age and thought it was decent at best. for the most part I didn't have any problems thieving anyone besides faerys and was even able to cast on some attackers to boot but i was also ALWAYS feeling a tad short on attack power even after blunting my expectations due to being a hybrid, loosing the pop bonus (even with TPA bonus) kills them. if a kingdom full of hybrids cant produce comparable numbers in attack & T/M power to a kingdom split between Faerys and pure attackers then hybrids loose a lot of their appeal. This isn't to say Elfs and Halfers need to be as strong of attackers as orcs while being able to op faerys but they need to land some where in the middle and right now i think the faery/attacker combo has the hybrid combo beat hands down. I would give Elfs a B+ to A- while giving the halfers a solid B.
Damage Hybrids (A/m & A/t)- Avains, Dwarfs and Humans (again not so sure on humans), Avains and Dwarfs both seem to fit well in their rolls as A/T and A/M respectively while leaning a bit more towards attack power than T/M power, this is a nice complement to the other hybrid rolls that seem to emphasize their T/M power a bit more. Like the other hybrids i feel like Avains and dwarfs are underpowered when compared to the combination of Faerys and attackers in a kingdom. neither race boasts the pop space or space efficiency to run a high enough WPA/TPA to take advantage of their + to damages and still maintain a decent attack strength as well. It also concerns me that both races have very little ability to turtle with low D elites making them much more vulnerable to pre war massacres during button games as well as ambushes to kill an already subpar offense. I also don't like the + to thievery damage as it functions now sense it will not exceed the max damage limit for a particular op so basically it just works out to sending less thieves to do the same damage which isn't nearly as attractive as doing 40% more damage for sending the same amount of thieves. Over all i would give them both about a B and again will talk about humans last.
Humans- To me it seems like you where looking for a race that could slide between a T/M and a hybrid with a fair amount of flexibility in how it was played depending on the players preferences. As humans stand right now however i just don't see them being usable in any roll. They have the added pop space which coupled with the +50% T/M damage you would think could make them a strong T/M candidate however their elite is no where near space efficient enough to allow humans to stack on the TPA and WPA needed to take advantage of those damage bonuses while keeping enough D to be relatively UB like faerys, the leet also bloats the humans NW making it a sub-par attacker or turtle as well. From the changes the way i interpret the vision for this roll is as a T/M capable of entering wars as fairly UB within its NW range, able to op attackers and hybrids (struggling to cast on elves and thieve halfers), un able to op faerys but able to slide into the roll of support attacker far better than faerys as war goes on and enemy MO diminishes.
CHANGES (to current proposals)
Undead, Orc and Faery Unchanged. i have heard people suggest dropping orc and undeads elites by one offensive point each which i think would go along way to balancing pure attackers and hybrids but then you would have to drop faerys elite by 1 D as well (otherwise they would be too strong in my opinion) which i think would cause another round of adjustments to be needed across the boards. So i would rather strengthen the other races than weaken this.
Elf- They don't need much. I Think that a 7/4, 6.5 NW-6.75NW Elite OR a +1 horse would give them the little extra kick they need to be very competitive. I prefer the 7/4 elite over the +1 horse.
Halfling- they need their pop bonus back! that and possibly still a little help with their offense. my suggestion? +10% pop and either a 6/6 elite or a +1 O spec and drop the 2/2 soldiers in either case (its a cool idea just not all too functional). I like the +1 O spec more. QF would also be nice to see back in their spell book as well
Avain- First change game mechanics so +40% thievery damage truly function that way instead of functioning as -40% thiefs needed to be sent. Next boost their attack power either an 8/3 elite OR if you think thats too much a 7/3 elite and remove the "no accesses to stables" penalty. I like the 8/3 elite as it allows avains to run a lower amount of elites and more D specs/thieves helping them turtle a bit and maintain a usable TPA.
Dwarf- I think bumping their BE bonus from +10% to +20% would help them all around but i'm not sure it would be enough, the other option i see is to drop the BE bonus and give them something like a 7/6 elite with a high enough NW to discourage a full elite army (maybe 7.5 NW?) i like the strong elite more than an increase in BE.
Humans- They need to most work to me, even more so sense i want their pop bonus moved back to halfers. i think that giving them the dwarf +10% BE (or even up to 20% BE) and a 5/7, 7 NWPA elite would suit them well. the BE bonus helps them shore up T/M abilities and the elite would allow them to slide from complete turtle to turtle attacker as a war drags on far better than now.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Pillz
*wipes tear away*
oh gawd, you kill me pillz. Doesn't hurt them...lol
Get farmed out
10's of millions of gc's worth of damage
Unable to train up fast enough to actually recover back to original size/protection
Left as a pure acre farm
Yep, doesn't hurt them one bit lol
After taking a further look all races except Human an Avian are good. The only adjustment I would make is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Evillone
Avian - 7/3 elite and will be fine. Will be on par with Dwarf.
Dwarf - Maybe a 5% to 10% BE boost. Elites are fine as is.
Faery - Make it -5% population penalty and drop elite value to 1/8 with a possible 900gc cost and 7.25 cost to compensate. To make sure they can't attack but not cripple the Faery.
Halfling - Race is fine as is.
Humans - Switch elite to 3/6 or 2/7 and make a 6/0 off spec. To me this will give them a bit more space allocation to be a competitive T/M while not being truly like a Faery.
Orc - Race is fine as is.
Undead - Race is fine as is.
A typical kingdom would have their "big" Faeries around 25-50% of the average province size. There are going to be 2-4 of them per kingdom. The amount of effort it requires to chain down 4 non attackers is not worth the trade off of being wrecked by the other 21-23 provinces in the enemy kingdom.
It is, simply put, not a viable winning strategy to chain T/Ms. It may hurt them in the long run, but in war it does just 2 things:
1- Increases their WPA/TPA (Chained A/Ms can LL ~50 of their size back anyways)
2- Leaves the real threat (attackers) unharmed.
T/Ms don't win real wars Palem, sorry.
Without going into a huge verbal beatdown and derailing the thread, I will just say you're horribly wrong on both counts, and shouldn't be acting as though your knowledge of the game is superior after saying something so ridiculous like "losing land helps t/ms".Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz
I've yet to see a kingdom win a war because of the awesomeness of 3 faeries.
Real quick Pillz...did you ever hear of over pop? When you take enough land from fays (chain to 500 acres from 1500) they are forced to release wizzies rendering them almost useless. OR massacre them and just take their acres at EoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz
I've been waiting to put my fingers on what I thought was imbalanced.
Orcs- In the suggestion they lost 5% gains, and their elite cost and NW went up. That doesn't really justify RM. Not to mention they got their BE back, and that RM is a defensive spell and Orcs shouldn't be defensive.
---My change: Reduce BE, or toss RM and give them reduced wages.
Warrior- The problem here is that the extra general and bonus to offense have too much synergy.
---My change: Give the general & enhanced conquest to Tactician (where for flavor reasons they belong). Give reduced attack time to Warrior. Then give Tactician some other flavorful buff, such as +25% ambush damage or ambush defense.
And rebalance modifiers from there.
1- Land Lust. Like I said, I have personally LL'd almost 50% of the land I lost as an A/M when chained. T/Ms can do the same thing.
2- IMO Wizards are a more effective unit then thieves when you're small, because of Land Lust. You would release thieves before wizards.
3- You can do without defense, since in this scenario you've just been chained to ****. You would release a fair amount of that before the thieves.
And again, why chain T/Ms?
Sanc beat Simians because of their Faeries :P
---My change: Reduce BE, or toss RM and give them reduced wages.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrekx
Reflect Magic is more of a curse for an Orc because you'd have to dedicate 20% of your land to Guilds (15%) and Towers (5%) instead of the 8% Guilds and 5% Towers now. The reason is that RM is one of the harder skills to cast so Orcs having the skill is kind of useless IMO. Rather have the reduced wages than RM any day so that extra 7% land can go other places. Reduced BE is a terrible penalty to attach to an Orc.
Would also reduce the -25% science effectiveness to -15% science effectiveness for Undead now that I think about it.
If you want to fix them maybe do this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrekx
The Warrior
-50% draft cost
+15% OME in war
Accurate Espionage (in war)
The Tactician
Gain 50% more Specialist and Building Credits
Enhanced Conquest range
-15% Attack Time
The Cleric
- 60% Your Military Casualties (on attack or defense)
Immune to The Plague <--- Clerics afterall
The War Hero
+25% honor protection
+1 General
-50% train time
The Sage
+ 25% Science effectiveness
-66% Losses on Learn Attacks
Immune to Dragons <---- To me the Plague Immunity fits better with Cleric.
Beating Simians is not really a challenge.
We out uniqued them 2:1.
I am sorry you would be dissapointed Pillz, all the changes are showing it will be the rise of the t/ms in the next age.
About the disscussion of the Faeries it is been very clearly shown. In the past there is almost no hope to see a Faery broken by a mage before, but now it is possible. This is a simple idea
- MS spell seems to be the best spell to weaken a Faery since their defence is mostly made out of elites
- However, the only race that is possible to make this happen - the Elfs, is less likely be able to keep honours for themselves
- So when Faeries are not well pump up in science and honour enough, they will be owned by either Elfs or Haflers
- When they are well pumped up, they can only be owned through attackers hits
- Which means in the early of the age, Elfs or Haflers will be able to own Faeries when they are not pumped up yet
- While Faeries will be able to own Elfs or Haflers in the middle or the late age
While:
- The nerf of Sage makes pumping harder and slower
- The lost of Merchant double effects on Banks and the lost of 30% income from Human will make the overall gc produced in game, lesser
- Players need a lot of gc but, the game does not produce enough gc for them to use?
- So, what may happen is more may rely on stealing inactives or semi inactive provs for gc
- And this is where the % on thievery damage will come in place and help a lot
- Advisable is to always keep some WTs or maintain a higher Tpa Out of War or in War since a lot of "thieves" out there will be eyeing your precious gc in the next age
Let's have the final decision done, there are a lot of discussions taking place here and mostly targetted on the Avians, Humans, Orcs and Faeries. Personally I am still hoping the development team can consider 2 critical factors in the last changes.
One is about my suggestion on the Elfs NM and the second is about Darkseels suggestion on the credits rewards of winning wars for the Orcs.
Among hundreds of posts here many ppl are keeping quiet about it, which is kind of clever but these are all selfish intentions, its not for the good to all. Imo an absolute imbalance of a race will spoil the gameplay while these imbalances are so clear to be noticed and hardly to be miss out at all.
Ppl can keep on having heavy debates about other races but they won't miss out such an imba advantage in the next age and it is more than certain they will fully make use of it.
Wars are meaningful and enjoyable, only when it is playable. A one side massacre war which there is almost no way to counter its offensive attacks, is meaningless and it gives no fun for the warring players. That's the only reason I suggest the removal of the NM of the Elfs, not because it is a selfish intention as my preferable race or the race I hated, but because I see there is almost near to no way to counter it. Hopefully the development team can consider about it, thanks.
Cosmetic change, but can Tactician be renamed General?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsu
A spell that you have a choice to use or not is not a curse. A good player will use RM even if he doesn't use it all the time.
As far as Halflings and Elves go they will own the Faeries throughout the age if played right because a 20% TPA/WPA difference is huge even if it's only on one aspect. 14% allocation difference on each end totaling a 28% space allocation loss to the Faery race. Thus making things extremely harder. I say remove the -10% population penalty on Faery race, set their elites to 1/8, 900gc, and 7.25NW. This will put the Faery race closer to each side space allocation wise while not giving a huge advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by UtopiaKarateKid
Regarding the race roles:
Avian - Strong attacking hybrid that can do 3 attacks a day with thievery capabilities and must be shown as such. A/t
Dwarf - Strong attacking hybrid that is skilled with the art of building with magic capabilities and must be shown as such. A/m
Elf - Weak attacking hybrid with strong magic skills. Meant to cast effectively on most races (trouble against Faeries and other Elves) while sneaking attacks here and there on low defense provinces. a/M
Faeries - Supposed to be near impossible to break in thievery and magic because they won't have any attacking force. This is shown in the reduction to their specs and elites offense. T/M (Must reflect as such)
Halfling - Weak attacking hybrid with strong thievery skills. Meant to cast effectively on most races (trouble against Faeries and other Halflings) while sneaking attacks here and there on low defense provinces. a/T
Human - Weak t/m with attacking abilities? Not sure what they are doing with this one but if this is supposed to be a weak t/m with attacking abilities they need to make the elite and off spec reflect it.
Orc - Strong attacker with no magic or thievery ability. Pure Attacker (personally I view this as a Spear type Attacker)
Undead - Strong attacker with little to no magic/thievery abilities that is more of the tank style. Harder to ambush.
Nightmares on Elf is alright as it will create some more flavor for the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by UtopiaKarateKid
Regarding the WW specialist credits they'll probably be used up before the following war anyway so shouldn't be an issue. This is due to all the ops that happen in the war. Usually pure attackers have to train 2k ~ 3k elites easy to replenish their forces. Don't see anything wrong here.
I was refering to the part you need more acres allocated to Guilds for it to be effective. That's unless you want to end up having to cast it up to 6 times before you either run out of runes or it finally succesfully casts. This is what I was getting at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrekx
At any rate. When will we get the Final Age 54 changes? I just don't want it to be like the Age 53 ones where we had only 1 1/2 days or something like that to number crunch etc.
If that's the case, then why does ANYONE use TMs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz
TMs win long wars. Even worse this age, TMs act as a nw reserve to ensure that you don't fall below the 50% mark and auto-lose.
Kill the TMs, win the war. Simple as that really.
Natsu when you say "a race is fine as is" I'm not sure if your talking about with bishops proposed changes or with mine as you quoted my list of changes as a preface. Either way you say for avains that "7/3 leet is fine and will put them on par with dwarfs" which if you don't change dwarfs, or just bump up their BE mod, is true the problem still being that the hybrid combos are still out matched by faerys+atackers combo and thiers no point in balancing avain with dwarfs when both would be underpowered. To top it off you improved faerys which further opens the gap between T/M's and hybrids.
Pillz u are wrong about not hitting faerys and the power they can hold in war... SPGC just finished waring Liam and we opened the war by hitting down 2 of their faerys, depriving them of the damage they would have done with ops and the econ the could have generated and guess what? we WON! in resounding fashion no less!
Exactly, you don't even get a choice to not use the credits, so the only people who will be able to hoard credits are those who don't have anything to train.Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsu
Basically the Age 54 Potential Changes Rev II overall is fine but need minor tweaks. Avian, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, and Human races shouldn't be able to break Faery provinces without the help of Orc/Undeads. Orcs/Undeads shouldn't be able to do any thievery (except intel) or magic on enemy provinces. Faery race shouldn't be able to attack anyone. Elves, Halflings, and Faeries should have issues when it comes to doing ops on each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evillone
You should need an Orc or Undead to break down a Faery province. In the other aspect you can use all other races to break down the Orcs/Undeads except the Faery, Elf, and Halfling races will do a better job at it. If you allow every race to break the Faery race then might aswell remove said race but I do agree that the Avian does need either a 7/3 elite or 0/6 on their defense spec. Other than those suggestions I made I feel the races are overall on the right path.
I disagree that RM has to be cast on the entire kingdom to be effective. I would consider just having it on 4-5 provinces as effective if it was able to reflect MS to eat away at a t/ms at home turtled defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsu
Plus I just don't like defensive spells on Orcs.