Simians Vs Sanctuary

ty jdorje.

if i may ask your opinion, although slightly off topic.......

i have never considered merchant as a viable personality for a "warring kingdom". (think ghetto wars)

However, the more math i put into it, the more i feel that it is the #1 choice.

20 provs against 20 provs. One kingdom a mixture of rogues, tacticians, and primarily cleric. The other..... Merchant.

flogger has already discussed this with me and voted for merchants (im obviously not accounting for T/M personalites here, just ur attacking core)

but yea whats ur thoughts?

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Originally Posted by DDodge

first of all i think i speak for everyone when i say how cool jdorje has been in providing summaries, feedback, tactics, etc regarding the war.

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Yes! Highly appreciated. Great example of what the forum could look like. Thanks.

I can think of at least one example where merchant would not be the best pick for an attacking base.

-Midsized KD aiming for 4 wars on average during round.

Cleric would be better imho. However, if youre looking to war after war after war, then merch is prolly the way to go. If youre looking for a t5 finish, then merch is prolly the way to go.

I picked merch this round for ud, and there is no way i could pick anyother personality with ud after experiencing it firsthand. For an avian or orc with lots of "pump" time, its a different story tho imo.

Flogger, no, sanc is not winning the battle of the smalls. I know you had some ideas on how to controll the smalls but we dun have stealth and to many generals to waste on them right now.
Top attackers and mid sized is going down. The more peasants they got the harder we hit them down.

Dorje got some questions about merchant setup, yet its Simians playing it.

War is still very interesting but since day 1 i been pretty confident of merch/avian stamina with the heavy T/M support.

I will post new summarys soon again

and ultimately what have people learnt if they listened to Flogger and Dorje if Simians win this?
Just saying

its all about you isnt it Anri.

Anri narcist?

symptoms:

Tends to exaggerate their own importance, achievements, and talents.
Requires constant attention and positive reinforcement from others.
Obsessed with oneself.
Wants "the best" of everything.

You can love me or hate me. I dont care! :)
Doesnt take away the fact that we are taking our third t5 win of this age.

Unless Sanctuary does not turn the war somehow.

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Originally Posted by gergnub

its all about you isnt it Anri.

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No, its about Simians and its quest of getting 3/3 wins.

http://www.******************.eu/age...ve-wars?id=561

OUCH! pattern set.

game over. GJ simians.

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Originally Posted by DDodge

i have never considered merchant as a viable personality for a "warring kingdom". (think ghetto wars)

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It depends on your goals.

At securing war wins in long wars, it is the only personality that will be successful. Dragons are a must.

At pumping after wars, it is by far the best. 97 hours postwar is enough to pump 180-190 nw/a.

At gaining acres through min time, or even in the 3-7 day period, it is not the best. But that's assuming you go in comparably pumped, which is hard with non-merchant.

At playing hybrid, it is very good and possibly the best. The extra income lets you get the thieves/science/draft that you need for hybrid to work.

If you are warring against a kingdom much worse, you tend to gain a lot of acres and then the income bonus helps.

As a "war kd" leader; merchant is great. Best all round personality, any warring kd should use it as reference when picking setups "Why is this better than merchant". If you cannot motivate that choice; pick merchant

Playing in the ghettos this age, I feel like the difference between merchant and non is not as huge as the difference as dorje would have it in his war. If you pump well (and this is not a given for a lot of kds), there's a good case to be made for tact/cleric/warrior. Merchants build paper tigers, but math doesnt always translate to ecological validity.

Yea, we use tact/warrior for all our attackers, avian/clerics last age. Mainly due to sustainability. Nonetheless, merchant is best standard pers and can be used as baseline for ghettos if they're uncertain

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Originally Posted by jdorje

It depends on your goals.

At securing war wins in long wars, it is the only personality that will be successful. Dragons are a must.

At pumping after wars, it is by far the best. 97 hours postwar is enough to pump 180-190 nw/a.

At gaining acres through min time, or even in the 3-7 day period, it is not the best. But that's assuming you go in comparably pumped, which is hard with non-merchant.

At playing hybrid, it is very good and possibly the best. The extra income lets you get the thieves/science/draft that you need for hybrid to work.

If you are warring against a kingdom much worse, you tend to gain a lot of acres and then the income bonus helps.

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Sage pwns hybrids.

Merchants are great for warring if you can keep pezzies, thats what it boils down to imo.

and keep spending your money before it gets stolen

And stay high enough in the charts that you don't have to run too many schools to protect your sci at all times.

Merchant is good enough this age that it will get a giant nerf next, ghetto or no.

Merchant does not need to get nerfed and merchant always been strong.

Simians has now done 1500+ hits on sanctuary

Cheers on that!

yes, but whatever sanc was trying in the last 12 hrs certainly seems to have been at least somewhat profitable. I still think they are done.

my bet is this war last another week. haha

if it goes three more days I think sanc will regret it..... But I can be wrong. Just looking at land and NW curves, I am seeing sancs land/nw values track more closly than simians. So most of the NW change over in sanc is whatever the land is. I think the curve adjustment is likely a small higher gain wave that sanc did (I have not looked at the news, its just what I would expect from the patterns), noticing almost no variation in simians NW through that, I suspect simians armies are much healthier and as that chugs along with the "parabolic" momentum I see in the simians curve, I suspect in 24 hrs, we will see an acre value crossover, probably 6-8 hrs of acre value trading and then simians going over the top in both acres and NW. So, unless sanc withdraws earlier, I see an obviously unrecoverable situation for sanc in 32 hrs.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

So, unless sanc withdraws earlier, I see an obviously unrecoverable situation for sanc in 32 hrs.

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10 days of identical acre exchange and you suspect one side is going to take 10k acres in 32 hours?

Good luck with that!

P.S. War is now dead even again.

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Originally Posted by Realest

Playing in the ghettos this age, I feel like the difference between merchant and non is not as huge as the difference as dorje would have it in his war. If you pump well (and this is not a given for a lot of kds), there's a good case to be made for tact/cleric/warrior. Merchants build paper tigers, but math doesnt always translate to ecological validity.

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That's because ghettos do nothing but pump for weeks at a time. If both are identically pumped, other personalities have an edge and that can get you more acres by min time. As war drags on - or any time you are growing - the economic bonuses of tactician/cleric/warrior decline while those of merchant rise.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

That's because ghettos do nothing but pump for weeks at a time. If both are identically pumped, other personalities have an edge and that can get you more acres by min time. As war drags on - or any time you are growing - the economic bonuses of tactician/cleric/warrior decline while those of merchant rise.

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I think you're understating the effect of the free build credits because you've been dealing with a war with an unusually low amount of acre change involving orcs and avians. Had both sides been 2x'ing to start, you'd have alot more chained provinces that are 4x max gaining provs with no def and the free building credits would be much more of an economic benefit to sanc.

The particular situations that resulted in neither side being able to chain has therefore helped merchant. Orcs not getting into a 4x maxgain eachother war by this time is the exception from my experience, not the norm.

Warriors are cute and should be snuggled

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Originally Posted by jdorje

10 days of identical acre exchange and you suspect one side is going to take 10k acres in 32 hours?

Good luck with that!

P.S. War is now dead even again.

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Like I said, I can be wrong. But, without having done any intel or looking at the papers, just reading curves and form what I have experienced in them, simians seems to have the more stable armies, that often tends to win wars. Flipping NWs after this long a time while sanc is cycling even with acre exchange is a big concern (in my experience). I don't necesarily expect a 10K acre flip in 32 hrs. I think in 32 hrs there will be a point where simians has a lot more armies on similar acres than sanc does.

for example, as I write this sanc is 130 nw/a while simians is 146. while at the same time simians is 12.5M acres and sancis 12.4M acres. Higher NWA on more acres generally is a good indication of how things are going as well.

there are a lot of little things that go into the curves, but generally once you see the "pinching" level out for one Kd and continue for the other and you see a NW flip, the end is 24-36 hrs away.

/me shrugs.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

That's because ghettos do nothing but pump for weeks at a time. If both are identically pumped, other personalities have an edge and that can get you more acres by min time. As war drags on - or any time you are growing - the economic bonuses of tactician/cleric/warrior decline while those of merchant rise.

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I think you overestimate the ability of ghettos to pump :p Time does not necessarily equate to a better pump. But yea, I feel like with the top kingdoms funding our science, we should have went something other than merchant.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Like I said, I can be wrong. But, without having done any intel or looking at the papers, just reading curves and form what I have experienced in them, simians seems to have the more stable armies, that often tends to win wars. Flipping NWs after this long a time while sanc is cycling even with acre exchange is a big concern (in my experience). I don't necesarily expect a 10K acre flip in 32 hrs. I think in 32 hrs there will be a point where simians has a lot more armies on similar acres than sanc does.

for example, as I write this sanc is 130 nw/a while simians is 146. while at the same time simians is 12.5M acres and sancis 12.4M acres. Higher NWA on more acres generally is a good indication of how things are going as well.

there are a lot of little things that go into the curves, but generally once you see the "pinching" level out for one Kd and continue for the other and you see a NW flip, the end is 24-36 hrs away.

/me shrugs.

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12.5m acres :( must have been big explore pools

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Like I said, I can be wrong. But, without having done any intel or looking at the papers, just reading curves and form what I have experienced in them, simians seems to have the more stable armies, that often tends to win wars. Flipping NWs after this long a time while sanc is cycling even with acre exchange is a big concern (in my experience). I don't necesarily expect a 10K acre flip in 32 hrs. I think in 32 hrs there will be a point where simians has a lot more armies on similar acres than sanc does.

for example, as I write this sanc is 130 nw/a while simians is 146. while at the same time simians is 12.5M acres and sancis 12.4M acres. Higher NWA on more acres generally is a good indication of how things are going as well.

there are a lot of little things that go into the curves, but generally once you see the "pinching" level out for one Kd and continue for the other and you see a NW flip, the end is 24-36 hrs away.

/me shrugs.

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did you check their nw/acre before hostile/war started? sanc entered not as pumped as simians. I remember seeing some orc pvs with nw/acre of 150. so keep that in mind before you just measure which kd's nw dropped more.

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Originally Posted by bluebear

did you check their nw/acre before hostile/war started? sanc entered not as pumped as simians. I remember seeing some orc pvs with nw/acre of 150. so keep that in mind before you just measure which kd's nw dropped more.

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Keep in mind that the 3 of sanctuarys faerys doubled thier land and nw.
The bank might get to double its size as well. Its the only reason their nw is still keeping up and the reason they can aid others to keep up. I dont think sanctuarys nwpa ever was any problem.
They had 48h to prepare and its their own fault if they did not prepare accordingly.

Infact they had way longer to prepare since we were in war vs Fratzia when they started to grow that bank and they knew we were coming for them.

War is still interesting and fun :)

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Originally Posted by Anri

Infact they had way longer to prepare since we were in war vs Fratzia when they started to grow that bank and they knew we were coming for them.

War is still interesting and fun :)

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tbh i definitely didnt think avians could last this long even with merchant personality. may the best win. it is interesting indeed. :D

The main problem of this war is really that both sides are unable to control the faerys.
Our side nightmare+MS and NS. Their side AW our biggies til they safely can LL them.
They stock acres and slowly gain honor. Our side open targets up with NS+NM and stock honor.
The war is not really leading anywhere. The next couple of days will be very interesting.
I think both sides need to think about what next step will be to counter each other and force a win.
Maybe this is how it will be, maybe we can keep going forever. I dont know. Its a tuff war.
Dorje mentioned a EoA cf and MP but we declined it. Dorje said we are not undeserving a win.
But imo they dont deserve to lose (yet). So we just keep going. No matter how this ends i think both KDs done very good. Simians is very stubborn so we are still here FTW! :)

well avians can last when orcs run out of defense. orcs problem are more of low defense and lack of resources to train def, since leet credits with tact keeps offense afloat. n like u said, simians went in more pumped. if anri didnt make the notice public den sanc would have a better time. but thats not anri's style aint it ;)

Awesomeness - Topics been posted all age about top wars. I did not think about it. I just made the topic since i tought it would be fun to have these war discussions on the forum. I really like how the community responded to this. That Sanc got stolen cant be helped. The only reason Simians had less gc stolen was because we had 3 tpa + in all provinces when notice was given and most gc was stocked at the faerys. Maybe we had 10-20 mill gc that was stolen while Sanctuary had 40 millions stolen. But it is not really my problem if Sanc does not train up and cant protect their gc. Why would sanc be allowed to run 130 nwpa provinces and a huge bank without tpa? I really dont understand what the problem is here. If they choose to have no tpa, no wts and banks without protection then its their own fault for getting it stolen. I dont know why anyone without a CF deal would just watch people sitt around with that much gc. Trollfags and others did a good job, i would have done the very same thing.
Dont blame me for sanctuarys ignorance that no one would dare to steal them when they pump.

relax anri. don't have to explain to me. im not dorje. im talking about your utopian celebrity lifestyle, not you using the media in your favor.

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Originally Posted by Anri

I just made the topic since i tought it would be fun to have these war discussions on the forum. I really like how the community responded to this.

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discussion of strategies by well known figures of utopia is quite entertaining and educating at the same time. i think many here appreciate inputs from jdorje, flogger, n you.