Good points but being that wizards aren't trainable I still believe they should be excluded from massacre.
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Good points but being that wizards aren't trainable I still believe they should be excluded from massacre.
I forgot what I came in here for which was to ask: any chance we can get some clarification on the buff to raze damage in war?
The only thing that affects more wizards being massacre'd is Orc +gains. Blood Lust does not increase gains, it increases military losses which as you pointed out does not include wizards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleria
You are also assuming a lot of factors to be ideal which likely won't ever be the case.
Coffee pointed out very clearly however, magic science no longer increasing wizard production will bring WPA's across the server more in line, couple this with science on every province will not be maxed (most attackers will probably sacrifice magic science) and mages are going to be ahead even more.
It will destroy more buildings than it did previously :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee
I have been here long enough to know the history of the game. Utopia at start no kds chain on each others. It was then all began by a top kd, and the chain strats get famous and every kds start copy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elldallan
The same goes with Nightmare. No idea since when a kd decided to go all Faery an age and then boom, Nightmare strats become famous all of a sudden.
Chaining is never a culture in Utopia. It is the players who thought it out. We are not even the creator of this warring strategy. Saying Utopia now needs chaining to win a war is kind of ridiculous. We are just a bunch of copycats that takes some other top kd's creation and take it as our own.
Be brave my dear fellow Utopians. To take away something that we are all familiar with isn't easy to adapt, but trust me, it is necessary.
Thank you David and Jeff.
Wizards will be back to sane levels this age.
In your post you are talking only about elves as mystics. IMO h/m is going to be the strongest mystic next age. T/ms won't be UB at the start of the war but if the enemy focuses 3-4 attacks on massacres that opens the attackers for deep chain without incoming land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleria
Also pls note that I still think rogues are stronger than mystics.
ET-ing rogues is harder than MS-ing attackers. Good rogues aim for high wpa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee
to add to thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Alleria
according to the guide the base gains are 9.5% peasants, 8.5% thieves and 5% wizards. So 5 massacres pre war IN NW Range only lowers your wpa 23%, and thats if you IGNOR GBP. Something like 7.5->5.8 raw wpa....if that makes a mystic irrlevent than why arent you doing it too, its pre war its not like u can be chained. Do a bunch of massacres? Is it because you cant give hostile or u'll get declared on? Then plan out your hostile better so u can massacre.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidC
In contrast the IN war the IN RANGE massacre damage is uped to 36% peasents 28% tpa 15% wpa. 5 massacres would lower wpa 56% IN war and take wpa from like 7.5 to 3.3 might make a mystic irrelevent but if you can spare the military to do 5 IN NW range massacres you SHOULD be winning your war. And you cant just say "we'll what about spare of massacres" Well gains fall off fast like <5% wpa losses if >40% out of nw range. I've had an oor massacre do less than .5 wpa damage on a 6-7 raw wpa mystic. So 5 oor and you're likely still above 6 raw wpa.
NOTE: on your example. was just bad planning. that one land grab likely droped your wpa way more than the 2 massacres. Once u see how powerfull spare off massacres are then plan a strategy around it. if both kds are doing it both kds have t/m's that drop similar amounts of wpa and then the t/m's are no loger irrelvent everyone's wpa is droping
Orc got nerfed imo, if you use bloodlust on 2 attacks in or outta war you are screwed...also ud got nerfed too, not being able to train leets they can make them 20/1 they will get destroyed once home...its enough for an quick overpop and when armies are homr prop/ns/nm party, ud gone.
Avian looks the most reliable tbh, and you can play sage or wh or warr
Comments such as this usually will not produce a result. As the motive can be easily seen, no race should be excluded from harms in war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleria
Usually when a kd massacre a Mystic prewar, they arent planning to chain him down later. Its either land grab start from the beginning or just massacre to kill its wizzards thieves.
Massacre lower the Wpa of a prov. Land grab increase the Wpa of a prov. Applying Massacre and then land grab would be kind of weird but let's assume not many kd will play in such a way.
Many alternatives can be applied as long as you really manage your prov well before entering the war. Given a Mystic should be at least having 5 raw Wpa, 4-5 Massacre will probably take away your ability to MS, but leaving 2-3 raw Wpa in your prov, I am sure casting FB would not be a problem. It is just changing strategies in the process of the war, you cant be saying after receiving 4-5 Massacres and you would become totally worthless in war.
Given if the opponent are all well prepared in Wpa and you cant even succeed in FBing, the space that you gain from all the lost troops from the Massacre will still make you rich in income when your peasants refilled later. You are only worthless when you gave up the war stop doing anything or stop login in.
Personally I dont see Massacres on Mystic is an issue at all. Comparing to the attacker roles where they are more vulnerable from all aspects, an attacker can be broken by mage, by thieves and by chain, I really cant see there is a need to complain being a Mystic would be a hard job at all. You worry too much of Massacre, take it easy it arent as bad as you think.
I am the same as well which I would consider more if I am going for UD, which is when I am waiting till the changes is finalized. As obvious as it seems a lot of players have eyes upon the possible combo of an Undead War Hero and its double elites conversion rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by portofelia
So, since the result is finalized... anyone mind to inform us how would the conversion rate is calculated in place of an Undead War Hero?
then why they can't write +15% gains when attacked ... right now it is a bit confusingQuote:
Originally Posted by Bo To
do u understand that bloodlust make u actual losses only 3.5% higher???? and i don't think it is as important as bigger losses on enemy... new bloodlust was one reason why orc's had to be nerfed .. with max sci and bloodlust orc and undead have almost same elite off valueQuote:
Originally Posted by portofelia
wish there is a 3 days freeze as usual... Some KDs are warring until eoa. There needs to be time to discuss changes in KD and make plans for new age
So what's the deal with science next age, what can we expect? Will it mean that compared to this age, you can max out 2 categories by end of age, thus only one mid age, and will science effects still be linear or be (inverse) exponential, or something in between?Quote:
Approximately +50% Scientists will be required to reach maximum effects (We want there to be a strategic choice as to what science effects you have by reducing the spawn rate & increasing required scientists to reach max)
When looking at this age, without even trying i have 190 scientists, rate will be a bit lower next, say 150 end of age, so that means that the cap has to go from the current 20-25 (professors) to 70-80 (professors) for max effect, will that mean 35-40 scientists give half the effect, or 3/4 effect, 90% effect? what to expect?¿, it's a huge unknown.
The main reason of this age's power creep is the combo of maxed pop/be/income/military science. If the science effects will still be linear, this will be a major nerf.
^False - In the early days kingdoms could raze kill provinces to force them to restart. I have an old taunt banner floating around where we added a gravestone for every killed one off. It has 17-headstones on it (one poor guy died twice).Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlayerback
Just wondering but do the offense boosts of fanatasism and bloodlust stack?
Hey there,
Couple of questions regarding the changes:
1 - Undeads "Defensive losses automatically convert to soldiers(Permanent Animate Dead)" does this include ambush?
2 - War Hero's "Converts some Specialists into Elites on successful land attacks" does this stack with Undead? Is the conversion on an undead the same as a conversion on a war hero?
Probably a bit late, but could Mystic get a new spell similar to CS, but rather than a 25% fail rate, make it a 25% reduction to thief-damage (like the other bonus of WTs)? I get that you want to limit the powerful CS, but mystics ... yikes. As it stands rogues are just going to go on a rampage next age.
Regards,
NighT
Raze to win and chain to win is two different matters. I believe i am not that old yet and i recalled i never experience, nor see any other kds begin the war by start razing each others at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimi
Raze only take place when one side is obviously a winner which the winner side can afford no incoming acres hence the reason why proven they already win the war.
One thing you are correct though to mention this point up. Raze does take away acres in the early day, but it isn't now, right? History already told us clearly and obviously, that this feature does not encourage a healthy game play, hence it is why it has been removed and replaced with buildings. I strongly believe if given raze changed back to destroy acres like the past, you would be most likely agree with it, but unfortunately the same as well I strongly believe that history will repeat again, where players will reject chaining in war.
I can see the logic why some minority prefer chain to win. In their definition of what wars mean, a war must be short and result must be seen in days. Activity is the pure reason that contributes to the reason of their war wins, which one side of a kd their players can afford to set the alarm clock to wake up in the midnight, another side of the kd their players have a life and a job who can't.
It is natural when you split out every single drops of your energy to run a marathon at the start, you will not have the stamina to last till the end. The same logic applies you will be tired and you cannot afford to wake up every midnight for weeks. I have seen a lot of cases where a kd loses a war in the long run, where activity in both kd changes. The fun and beauty of warring in utopia should not belong to only the group of serious gamers. It should be belong to the players worldwide together.
Simply as it said. If you are truly good, you will deserve to win at last and no one can take that war win away from you. If you are not, that just mean you don't. We already have a war mechanism that an auto win at 50% of the nw. If playing wars in utopia means only tire for you, then it means you have played it wrong and more reason for us why we should consider to change the current war mechanism.
Playing games, is best reserved when it is for fun.
Just noticed War Heroes got elite conversions added back to them on final changes... Party On, Wayne!
Why do you insist on using phrases like "why some minority prefer chain". You have NOTHING to prove it's only the minority that chain or that the majority of the players would rather war differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlayerback
Whole heartily disagree with that middle paragraph. As I said earlier Utopia is basically a PvP game. There is always going to be a winner/loser. If a "serious gamer" puts in more time/effort/skill than somebody else they should have an advantage.
Playing games should be fun....but what is fun for you is not the same as what is fun for me. I enjoy completely destroying other provinces in war. What you are suggesting takes away my fun. Why is your version of fun more important than my version?
Utopia is a competitive game. There are rankings. It should be your kingdom vs the rest of the server and whatever you can do to take out your competition. To me deep chaining during war helps our kingdom achieve its goal for the age.
War hero convert and undead convert are the same mechanic, however when combined the extra convert will be only 50% effective. This means the theoretical first attack of a war hero undead with no elites on a perfect target would be 30%.
Thats Very interesting tbh. So basicly you can get Max elit fairly quickly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Depends on what you qualify as 'max elite'... Undead will have a very difficult time getting an all-elite offense which is how I take your comment. The only way I see it possible is to run a very heavy offense spec army and convert until you get the desired amount of elites, then convert your offense specs into the desired amount of defense specs. That doesn't seem like a good strat though since the offense specs still have good value and if you did send only elites you will lose troops without converting thus losing offense. Furthermore, you can only train specs to replenish your military during a war and after growth.
Undead's won't really have a maximum on their elites, it's more just a continuous ebb and flow that must be carefully balanced with growth and war to maintain a sufficient amount of offense. Continuous land grabs to achieve higher offense, but not getting too fat, then keeping troops away so that elites aren't sitting at home vulnerable to defensive losses. Will be a dance that truly active and experienced players can perform with elegance and which noobs will get tripped up while doing.
I've got a question about the mecanics change, it says food and rune protection is 120% maxed, but I'd really like to know what the rune protection max is, and if it covers plunders, rob towers and lightning strikes or just plunders and rob towers or just plunders? It can not be 120% that must be food production exclusively or you would generate runes rather than loosing them when they are targetted, or is it +120% in relation to your other protection, tpa wt's, gs race etc? in that case it would only protect marginally.
It is production, not protection. Doesn't appear to be typo'ed in the post. Are you seeing it in a different place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Madchess
So you would produce 120% more runes or food.
but either way, is it random? or a percentage of runes & food?Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffT
Food/rune science is production, just like food science is now (with a different max, and with it affecting runes too).Quote:
Originally Posted by qorinth
Currently: Food science gives an increase of up to 200% in the amount of food each farm produces.
Next age: Food/rune science (production science) gives an increase of up to 120% in the amount of food each farm produces AND the amount of runes each tower produces.
@JeffT - haven't noticed it typo'd anywhere.
30% is within the range of expectation, even with 50% effectiveness it is still huge man. What bothers me is the -50% casualty of Undead, but guess that can be fix with some Hospitals. If War Hero can stack with Undead conversion, this race is not weak in the next age imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimi
Dear Glimi, because I don't have to.
What is the player base in the Era of Mehul, where players only allowed to join random kds? Vast, massive.
What is the player base once kds can recruit specific players into their kds? Shrink a few hundred percents.
When you can recruit specific player, naturally you would only recruit the best. Would anyone recruit the worst players into your kd? No I guess.
When a group of serious gamers located at a same kd, naturally they will own all other kds in the server. And serious gamers will always be the minority group, because like I said, very few people can afford to wake up in the middle of the night.
Mehul does not allow all best players to be located in a same kd. So every kds will have a few best players of its own, and thus the average kd's strength are close to each others. When one kd's strength does not exceed too much on each others, it fits to the majority and that's the time where Utopia is meant for the players of the worldwide.
When recruitment is possible for Utopia, it naturally changed into a game that fits for the minority. The minority stands of serious gamers, who love to play Utopia very much, who want to build up their kds more efficiently. They are tired of having ghetto players in their kd.
But in the same time when you do this, you reject the majority players out of your game.
To take off recruitment feature from Utopia now is way too dangerous. It might result in a direct decline in player base. Anyway, we have been recruiting players for like 7-8 years. Stop chaining in war is more an indirect influence to do the job.
You can't put it in a way that my version of fun is better than your version. You can put it that I have a wider and further view than yours. To keep utopia going and not only going, but advancing, we must change now. Like I mentioned, we are all bunch of old players here, no matter how you love Utopia, this game will not survive if it only depends on old players to run the game. You do not have a choice. Either if you change the mechanism that fits to the game of majority, or you walk slowly towards the path of distinction.
If you love Utopia, you should understand why I am suggesting this.
I am hearing something about a shorter freeze time.. where is this posted? Am I missing something?
Age 70 End: Friday March 10th at 00:00 GMTQuote:
Originally Posted by Iraze
Age 71 Freeze Start: Friday 10th March at 06:00 GMT
Age 71 Protection Start: Saturday 11th March at 18:00 GMT
Age 71 Protection End: Sunday 12th March at 18:00 GMT
So, 36h freeze.
So can ppl who are aware of the code tell us is there diminishing returns on the sci or just scientists required change?
Come on....we both know that the top kingdoms most certainly did recruit the best players and account traded all the time. Just because Utopia didn't allow it doesn't mean it didn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlayerback
Again...that's an your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlayerback
I'm not the one posting paragraphs of changes and claiming it's the holy grail of getting new players to join the game. I fundamentally disagree with your "majority/minority" player base opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlayerback
Is Utopia hard for new players? YES
Does Utopia need to create better tools to make the game easier for new players? Yes
Does Utopia need to drastically change how it works to recruit new players? No
@ Jeff
I might have misread it and stayed with the belief until then, thanks for clearifying.
I've seen this question here and elsewhere with no one providing clarifications, so I will provide some detail:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo To
We just have the change to the number of scientists required to max a category -- they will still increase the bonus in a linear fashion. We will revisit a larger overhaul for next age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimi
Let's make it honest. Utopia is hard for new players because we old players owned it and commanded them like we owned them as well. It is not because they lacked of tools that make it hard.
I ain't from the top kd, and i have spent a lot of effort trying to lead, encourage and educate new players to play the game so i dont have to keep seeing players comes and leaves, while they get chained and razed in wars make it difficult to pass the first month of the game. When it happen a new player join a top kd, what top kds require from them is full obedience or threatened to raze them out if they don't. It is not the first time i received negative feedback from those who had been in top kds before. Iron fists, dictators or even barbarians are the comments i usually get from them. Veteran players can sometimes be quite an ass and arrogant when they met with new players who just start to learn the game. A few years ago it has always been unpleasant to war with some top kds as how their behave themselves in the war forum is a bad influence for kids. However it is getting better in the recent years. Top kds has no patience in leading newbies in the game. You don't spend time communicate with them naturally you have no ideas about it, do you even care what they think anyway. You can just keep on enjoy destroying provs until there is no one left in the server to let you do so.
The kind of top kds that I highly respect in Utopia is the one who can adapt the changes and lead the entire server by their brilliant minds. No matter what changes take place they will always find a way to prove that they belong on top of the list. The Nightmare strats, chaining and hybrids all comes from the top kds before others copy it into their own. They always surprise the entire server by going the kind of race/personality formation that defies common sense. Being all Faeries is the best example to challenge the majority of the players who kept brainwash the server that only attackers can win a war. It is like a slap on the face when the majority find no way to win against heavy races such as orcs and undeads, the top kds show them a way that it can. That's the role of what the minority best players should play in the server, not only enjoying on the part of destructive means.
I am not worried at all that adding more features or change the war mechanism will stop the top players from continue being the top. I am worried about those who copied the strats from the top kds but can't produce new ones by their own. Perhaps that's the reason why they are fear to see changes in the game.
When a games exist long enough naturally they need some changes to cope with the world that keeps advancing. There is no such thing that a game cannot evolve, only the ones who cannot adapts.
To a large degree it is. Utopia is not that intuitive, and completely new players often seem to struggle because there is no "obvious" right way to go about things.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlayerback
While doing the same, I think the biggest problem is usually to get the new players to interact. Once they start talking to their KD mates, you can usually get most things sorted, like passing on essential knowledge and helping them improve their strategy. Top KD's rarely get new players (as they in general have 22+ players), instead they recruit players they feel are up to their standards. That Monarchs of top KD's gets called dictators, I can totally understand. But this is no different from any other competitive team sport around, and if a new player fail to comprehend that they are in a competitive environment and consequently fail to adapt to their surroundings, Im not sure I'd pin the blame on the competitive monarch.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlayerback
If this was true, then it should be quite evident from the number of players playing the game ? Like, when trading became allowed it should be an obvious drop in players ?Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlayerback
http://thedragonportal.eu/History.html
(If you notice, Utopia has been in a steady decline since age 20)
It fine to have a subjective, romantic idea about what Utopia is/was, but dont push it as a fact.
The founder of Munkbot has joined in the future development, Utopia will be having something called tournament, in the new announcement. We have a software engineer to work on the code, that's a great news :)
Well, new players lied their way up to top kd upon recruitment, instead they just been in the game for a very short period. Usually thats when they master at least one race in the game. With their activity and enthusiasm at the start, it is not hard to get themselves recruited. Everyone wants to be in the best team and i can understand that, but mostly come out disappointed when they get to know the environment within. It is a pick of being slaves in the top kds or respects and freedom in an average kd. There are competitive kds around, but none is as extreme as the top kds.
But we are not here to discuss what top kds is. I remember reading a post of interview with Mehul which I believe it is still here in the forum. He mentioned about his only disagreement about having kds recruiting specific players. His motive is to promote the meeting of players worldwide joining together to play a game. I do not understand why. Recruiting players does not stop the worldwide players from joining. I do not understand then, but I understand now.
Mehul is a person strong with concepts. Many disagree on him and pick his faults to talk about, but I only pick his best to look into. For the next 10 years in the gaming industry, I can find many successful games similar to his concepts to what he said 10 years earlier. While the group of serious gamers only care whether they can join the kd they desired, what Mehul saw is much more further.
When Mehul step down and new development took place, it is way too obvious the player base drops a lot. It is a shock looking at the remaining number of kds and i believe many old players wont even forget that. What proof do you want me to provide? Before Mehul, many critics and suggest to be able to join the kd they desired, which looks like what the majority players wanted. But when it is been implemented, the result is totally opposite.
Nothing comes out good when you do things too extreme. When players get to pick their own kd, the difference between top kds and ghetto kds enlarged. This is exactly the same as when the difference between the rich and poor in our real life society enlarge. The rich got richer, the poor got poorer. Problems occur when this happen. When strong kds get to slaughter ghetto kds, they get cocky and its by then a lot of bad behavior we can see in the war. A normal and educated person who just want to find a web game for relax and fun will not waste time in such a game, where there is no hope to fight against the other kds, and they do not come here to argue either.
It is true, and untrue when you said when a gamer spent more time in a game, they should gain an upper hand. It is just give and takes. You want to do that, then you are playing in a game with small player base because you must understand, in the same time you like to slaughter, the same tmie no one enjoy to let you slaughter either.
It is quite over the line in my opinion, and pissed me off a little i admit, when i see some old players dont even agree to remove chaining in wars. Because no matter how the war mechanic changes, as long as the serious gamers invest more time in the game, while normal players dont, they will always win against the normal players. But the point is, what they want is extreme. They want a complete destruction. An annihilation. That is what I cannot agree with. A person got to have some tolerance in his heart. Being this extreme will only bring the game down together at the end.
Top kds will never understand what the average kds go through. Players in top kds get to slaughter others all the time, they will not hear much about the complains of being chained in an average kds. Bully is always better than being bullied, that's the logic that applies. New players usually got trained up in average kds before they are experienced enough to be recruited into the top, but there is a limit in the repetition of this cycle. A kdmates who talks does not mean he will stay after he gets chained continuously for several wars, even when it means a war win for the entire kd. They do not like to go into the top kds because there is almost no respect and freedom there, and they can't play in average kds because they always got chained to the ground. So what they did? Quit the game and find another then, what else. Majority of the players view from the perspective of their own provs. You want to have a bigger player base to enjoy with? You have to give some and take some but not take it all.
I do not believe when somebody said he enjoy chaining others and he enjoyed being chained by others as well at the same time. Ppl dont enjoy seeing their prov got razed down to the ground every wars. It is a bit insulting when I am been requested to prove this fact multiple times. A lot of time and effort need to invest to rebuild it up. Wars can be played without massive destruction, if Crash of Titan can succeed doing that, I find no logic why Utopia can't.
Competitive players understand it's kill or be killed. There can only be one kingdom at the top. I think it's insulting that you fail to grasp this. If I wanted to play the mechanics of whatever Crash of Titan is.....I'd play that. Why does Utopia have to mimic something else instead of remaining what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlayerback