Suicide Squad VS FReakstyle

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Originally Posted by Pale

Sorting through all the crap, having to run waves/hits during christmas, spending time arguing on here, etc is not fun. This entire situation is NOT FUN. Hitting one of my friends is certainly not fun.

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Then why did you do it?

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Originally Posted by Palem

Aren't you trying to intimidate utopia into acting a way that falls into line with what you think is the "right" way to play? How are you any different than the "morally corrupt" top that you find to be so objectionable?

This isn't the Unites States Supreme Court. You can't cite the bill of rights for what is or is not a razable offense. There is no due-process or a presumption of innocence. You need exactly as much evidence as it take to convince you that someone is guilty. No more, no less.

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Essentially this. As we've said in our IRC discussions, while I agree that FS does plenty of things that are undesirable, I'm not sure that they're the place to start, and I find that the way this entire thing has been presented -- remember, the initial reason for folks hitting FS was because they waved SS out of range -- is a terrible precedent to set for utopia. If you want to go after bullies / dick play, I'd focus on the warwin kds that stay under 25 provs to farm wars off weaker kds, and the kds who drop significant land to keep fighting weaker kds. Situations are different, but I would say that in pretty much any situation vs a kd not currently engaged, 1 wave -> CF is not 'bullying' or unfair play.

There definitely is not a right to due process or any of that stuff, and the nature of uto is such that there tend to be more folks leaking information and people wanting to protect their friends. If, for example, I had a friend in SS' council that was showing me logs of SS' council talking about organizing their declare with other kds to coordinate a GB, and that they would only max meter if they had commitments from those kds to GB FS, I wouldn't want to share that log and get my friend in trouble. If it's an ingame message to other kds (such as Ruthless messaging kds that SS is organizing the gb), that's probably less of a concern.

The other things (the situation with Iampost's kd, for example) are examples of poor play on FS's part, and may well justify them being actioned -- the issue is that they (particularly the Iampost situation) weren't brought up until AFTER the GB began -- frankly, no one had more than the thinks from him until 24-36h ago, and don't excuse the actions of folks on SS' side (acknowledging that your motives are different than Ruthless', for example - I don't particularly think you guys should have been actioned, whereas I do think that Ruthless should be).

Though frankly, at this point it seems like the solution is for the situation to just get CF'ed out.

Zauper this isn't Hello Kitty Online; you should know that by now or you wouldn't be at the top of the land chart.

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Originally Posted by Palem

Aren't you trying to intimidate utopia into acting a way that falls into line with what you think is the "right" way to play? How are you any different than the "morally corrupt" top that you find to be so objectionable?


This isn't the Unites States Supreme Court. You can't cite the bill of rights for what is or is not a razable offense. There is no due-process or a presumption of innocence. You need exactly as much evidence as it take to convince you that someone is guilty. No more, no less.

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is anyone feeling intimidated by me? If so, please let me know and rest assured it was not intentional. The last thing I want to do is to intimidate people.

are you sure the community really wants "raze first, ask later" kind of justice? I am fairly sure they do not. I don't even think most of the "enforcers" think or want that.

P.S. Just like most I generalize sometimes to make it easier. Not everyone in the Top or even in the Alliance agreed with the way things went. I apologize to those that did not for generalizing but listing the ones that do would be too long and listing the ones who dont also. I appreciate people that try to make the game more fun for everyone regardless of crowns and ranks. Thank you for your work.

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

is anyone feeling intimidated by me? If so, please let me know and rest assured it was not intentional. The last thing I want to do is to intimidate people.

are you sure the community really wants "raze first, ask later" kind of justice? I am fairly sure they do not. I don't even think most of the "enforcers" think or want that.

P.S. Just like most I generalize sometimes to make it easier. Not everyone in the Top or even in the Alliance agreed with the way things went. I apologize to those that did not for generalizing but listing the ones that do would be too long and listing the ones who dont also. I appreciate people that try to make the game more fun for everyone regardless of crowns and ranks. Thank you for your work.

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Agree again! Raze first ask questions later stops here and now.

You started a "task force" or whatever to raze people who play in a way you don't agree with. Now I'm not saying you're right or you're wrong, but how is that any different than what everyone else already does? You're trying to force (quite literally) people into playing a certain way. Just like what you feel is being done to you, only when it's you doing it for what you feel is good, it's for the betterment of the game, but when other people do it for things they feel are for the better of the game, which happen to oppose you, they are "morally corrupt" and bullies. I'm just asking where the difference is...?


Also, I didn't say the community razes first and asks questions later. People generally look into things to make sure they aren't going to make themselves look like fools. All I'm saying is every kingdom will handle things the way they think it needs to handled, with as much evidence as they think they need.

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Originally Posted by Zauper

If you want to go after bullies / dick play, I'd focus on the warwin kds that stay under 25 provs to farm wars off weaker kds, and the kds who drop significant land to keep fighting weaker kds. Situations are different, but I would say that in pretty much any situation vs a kd not currently engaged, 1 wave -> CF is not 'bullying' or unfair play.

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> Lord Wormrot the Sorcerer of Meteor to the Face (FS) said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
nope, only 25 man kds left in this target range and its a little late now to drop down to 22-23 man kds range now. we will probably have to fight a 25man kd and get dropped back to smaller range. this has been really a big blow for us.

just gonna leave this here.

Thanks though Zauper for restoring a bit of my faith in humanity.

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

> Lord Wormrot the Sorcerer of Meteor to the Face (FS) said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
nope, only 25 man kds left in this target range and its a little late now to drop down to 22-23 man kds range now. we will probably have to fight a 25man kd and get dropped back to smaller range. this has been really a big blow for us.

just gonna leave this here.

Thanks though Zauper for restoring a bit of my faith in humanity.

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we were 22 players and its fairly reasonable to assume we would lose against 25 player kds in our range.. we were a 22-player kd in 25-player kds range, with little to nothing to do left.. im amazed by your ability to reach conclusions while being so clueless about events/timelines.. before some 'genius' claims we were staying 22 player intentionally, go check our recruitment thread for our efforts to recruit ppl..

also, anyone is welcome to check our growth through age from target finder, and i challange anyone to find us landdropping at some point to feed on ghettos..

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Originally Posted by Zauper

The other things (the situation with Iampost's kd, for example) are examples of poor play on FS's part, and may well justify them being actioned -- the issue is that they (particularly the Iampost situation) weren't brought up until AFTER the GB began -- frankly, no one had more than the thinks from him until 24-36h ago, and don't excuse the actions of folks on SS' side (acknowledging that your motives are different than Ruthless', for example - I don't particularly think you guys should have been actioned, whereas I do think that Ruthless should be).

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we were already actioned for that event you mention, and as soon as our internal miscommunication became clear, we didnt do anything about being hit by a third kd because it was deserved and immediately moved on to apologizing for it, resolved the situation with said kds & moved on.. we didnt make a fuss about being actioned for stupidity, and instead moved on from the issue & tried to address our internal errors..

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Originally Posted by Palem

Aren't you trying to intimidate utopia into acting a way that falls into line with what you think is the "right" way to play? How are you any different than the "morally corrupt" top that you find to be so objectionable?


This isn't the Unites States Supreme Court. You can't cite the bill of rights for what is or is not a razable offense. There is no due-process or a presumption of innocence. You need exactly as much evidence as it take to convince you that someone is guilty. No more, no less.

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Different because Goodwitch is reacting to a wrong. Intimidation is the byproduct. Now you may argue with how she says what she's saying; not everyone is master of debate. The diplomatic environment is indeed weighted against her side.

Allow me to argue on a moral basis. The point being FS is part of a system of bullying. You basically believe in dog eat dog. So do I. Meaning I understand it. You've used the method of razing into war yourself so this is even ground.

Utopians would like to do their business with the understanding there is retributive balance. You left the game under the guise of not caring anymore when POINT engaged vac mode. Or whatever reason you might have. This was an injustice? You did leave the game.

What we're defending is the player base. This is what is good. This is what matters to us.

FS has in the past been a steward of the game. I'm not questioning that. What I find to be senseless is the railroading of the war tier that is essentially a separate department to where FS occupies. They are a top kingdom pretending to be a war kingdom. That they hit the ceiling is admirable, but it's time to look up instead of down. Pyro did. The U did.

Everybody starts with 400 acres, but not everyone starts with at least 75 friends in diplomatic safety to compete evenly. That these friends have depth of knowledge and cohesion widens that gap. The kingdoms in question on the receiving end have been hashing rosters together all age to get where they are.

It's one thing to objectify the game from the standpoint of everyone having the same set of rules and then understanding that in the game there are levels of competition. Look at any organized sport and the divisions are partly there to protect the integrity of the game. We as stewards of Utopia in it's shrinking player base should exercise a level of restraint regarding our fragile future.

This entire action smacks of hopelessness from our top kingdom organization. That they joke about inactivity while running extreme science doesn't get by me. If so gifted let the remaining server play. My hope lies in the nostalgic return of players from the past. We've had a few, but we need more. We need to bridge that gap, or see the game die in that mindset. Longevity is dependent on interest. You, Palem, are speaking from a non-player perspective. We need you back.

What we saw were kingdoms striving to get their rosters set, organize valid strategies and looking up. This action is straining the grid, as if they don't care if the game dies now. Unlike this action I levy mercy. But why? Wouldn't this invite softer play? This isn't about a few skilled players, we require mass in the player base. The higher the mass the higher likelihood of quality players and leaders to join the competitive field.

The ones I think about the most are The Empyreans, The Wishmasters, The Nobles, The Core, Metallic Symphony, Plaidovia and on and on. They are at peace in this game and we owe it to them to keep it going.

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

Who decides who the police is? Who decides what the community doesn't like?

You can't convict someone without looking at evidence. Then carry out a sentence...and after the fact change the verdict to justify the sentence.

The proper way would be to bring up charges
check if charges are substantiated
Give the accused access to evidence and give them a chance to defend themselves
render the verdict
carry out the sentence

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Its crazy how delusional and entitled you feel.
What kind of twisted mind can produce this kind of post AFTER you failed to exercise the same to us first ? How can you not see the irony in this ??

Your side took it upon yourself to group and organize 4v1 GB under the table, into the war, breaking EOACF deal along the way.
DO you not see how insane your complaints are when others did the same to you ?

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

I see while I was sleeping the alliance made more friends...

how many players have you caused to quit the game today?

Congratulations BB, FS, Pyro and CR(never thought I would have to add you guys to this list) well played.

Every single post and in game action has done nothing but prove that you have no interest in fairness. Apparently you are all on a power trip to feed your egos. well merry Christmas. Instead of Admiration for your achievements you have now earned disgust for your actions from the community of Utopia.

And thanks devs for enabling these morally corrupt players.

p.s. I do not blame the players in above list of kingdoms. They are following orders of their monarchs what is totally understandable(within reason)

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I lol'd

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

not at all. It's no secret who sent the banner, it shows in their news. I think Ascension should take the honor crown actually. But what the banner does show is that no one ever really had a shot at the crown other than FS. It was decided at the beginning of the age, maybe even before then. Clearly proven by the actions of their "friends". Makes that crown a truly honorable achievement...not.

Kiss up enough and some day it may be your turn to crown :) I can give you a map of where to start.

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And then I lol'd some more

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Originally Posted by Palem

You started a "task force" or whatever to raze people who play in a way you don't agree with. Now I'm not saying you're right or you're wrong, but how is that any different than what everyone else already does? You're trying to force (quite literally) people into playing a certain way. Just like what you feel is being done to you, only when it's you doing it for what you feel is good, it's for the betterment of the game, but when other people do it for things they feel are for the better of the game, which happen to oppose you, they are "morally corrupt" and bullies. I'm just asking where the difference is...?


Also, I didn't say the community razes first and asks questions later. People generally look into things to make sure they aren't going to make themselves look like fools. All I'm saying is every kingdom will handle things the way they think it needs to handled, with as much evidence as they think they need.

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Palem you are welcome to stop by any time. #pluribus on irc utonet. That is not at all what we are doing. As a matter of fact I was just yelled at by a monarch for "just" sending a mail instead of hitting. The mail did however end the conflict, without being threatening. And after 5 minutes of cool down the yeller, who was clearly frustrated and understandably agitated, realized that this fixed the situation for his kingdom as well as the opponent.
Essentially we are helping out smaller kingdoms that otherwise would fall through the cracks. Trying to keep it fun for those players.
How is that a bad thing exactly?

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Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN

we were 22 players and its fairly reasonable to assume we would lose against 25 player kds in our range.. we were a 22-player kd in 25-player kds range, with little to nothing to do left.. im amazed by your ability to reach conclusions while being so clueless about events/timelines.. before some 'genius' claims we were staying 22 player intentionally, go check our recruitment thread for our efforts to recruit ppl..

also, anyone is welcome to check our growth through age from target finder, and i challange anyone to find us landdropping at some point to feed on ghettos..

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Almost every kingdom is always recruiting. I find it hard to believe though that FS couldn't find more players. Also since you have the logs you know you first tried to convince the other monarch that you "aren't really that good". And not till after he called your bluff did you tell him that they never stood a chance in war against you, but they should war you anyway because you promised terms that would inflict less pain than the kingdom in range they wanted to war.

Very much like in our case when after I found out it was your kingdom you said things like "If I had known it was you, things would have went differently". You knew it was me, I signed my msg with my name. And another case of "oh, I am not in game monarch so I don't know". You not seeing the message is highly unlikely.

Citadela , we did none of those things you accuse us of. I tried , starting during the WSK vs SS war, to show Francis that his actions hurt the game, the player base. Several people did.

The Alliance argues they don't like what FS is doing but they have no way to police it because it isn't against the rules of the game or "the community"
I am saying if the community thinks it's wrong it should be against their rules.
How is it less bad if someone discourages lots of people to continue playing, than if someone breaks a deal with a kingdom that most likely has the fortitude to strike back another time for example? Is a crown more important than the future of Utopia?

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Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN

we were already actioned for that event you mention, and as soon as our internal miscommunication became clear, we didnt do anything about being hit by a third kd because it was deserved and immediately moved on to apologizing for it, resolved the situation with said kds & moved on.. we didnt make a fuss about being actioned for stupidity, and instead moved on from the issue & tried to address our internal errors..

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Of course you moved on. You moved on and we disbanded.

Not sure it was to do with an 'internal misscommunication' when two of the guys in your leadership (over 5 days after the war was off) gave your agreement to war kingdom 'y'. More to do with an outside kd putting a couple of hits on you and you realizing you weren't going to get away with db and waving a kd 1mill smaller than you (6 weeks into age) into their hostile. Additionally, I wouldn't call what happened to you 'action-ed'.

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

i am currently trying to help a kingdom being raze killed by another kingdom for no reason. It's a small kingdom so the top won't care about it.

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You do realize it was YOUR side that pulled the trigger with razes, right?

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Originally Posted by StratOcastle

Utopians would like to do their business with the understanding there is retributive balance. You left the game under the guise of not caring anymore when POINT engaged vac mode. Or whatever reason you might have. This was an injustice? You did leave the game.

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I left because I was no longer having fun. I would never actively turn people away from the game, but if you aren't getting any joy from playing a game, you shouldn't play it. Simple as that. As I explained in the thread, there wasn't anything that "happened" and I absolutely considered POINT jumping into VM as a victory. We beat him, so he had to hide.

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FS has in the past been a steward of the game. I'm not questioning that. What I find to be senseless is the railroading of the war tier that is essentially a separate department to where FS occupies. They are a top kingdom pretending to be a war kingdom. That they hit the ceiling is admirable, but it's time to look up instead of down. Pyro did. The U did.

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Pyro and the U wanted to try their hand at whoring. If FS wants to be the biggest, baddest, warringest kingdom the game's ever seen, that's their choice. You don't get to dictate the goals of other kingdoms.

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Everybody starts with 400 acres, but not everyone starts with at least 75 friends in diplomatic safety to compete evenly. That these friends have depth of knowledge and cohesion widens that gap. The kingdoms in question on the receiving end have been hashing rosters together all age to get where they are.

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That's part of the game though, building your kingdom up. It's not just roster management. It's making friends and enemies. It's making it known what you will and won't stand for and then (hopefully) sticking by that. It's getting better at diplo and making connections with other kingdoms.

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What we saw were kingdoms striving to get their rosters set, organize valid strategies and looking up. This action is straining the grid, as if they don't care if the game dies now. Unlike this action I levy mercy. But why? Wouldn't this invite softer play? This isn't about a few skilled players, we require mass in the player base. The higher the mass the higher likelihood of quality players and leaders to join the competitive field.

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I agree. Game needs players and we especially need to retain the players we already have. What I don't agree with is that Goodwitch and her task force will cause less people to quit than the way it kingdoms are already actioned. How is Goodwitch razing people somehow better for the playerbase than Zauper razing people?

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

Palem you are welcome to stop by any time. #pluribus on irc utonet. That is not at all what we are doing. As a matter of fact I was just yelled at by a monarch for "just" sending a mail instead of hitting. The mail did however end the conflict, without being threatening. And after 5 minutes of cool down the yeller, who was clearly frustrated and understandably agitated, realized that this fixed the situation for his kingdom as well as the opponent.
Essentially we are helping out smaller kingdoms that otherwise would fall through the cracks. Trying to keep it fun for those players.
How is that a bad thing exactly?



Almost every kingdom is always recruiting. I find it hard to believe though that FS couldn't find more players. Also since you have the logs you know you first tried to convince the other monarch that you "aren't really that good". And not till after he called your bluff did you tell him that they never stood a chance in war against you, but they should war you anyway because you promised terms that would inflict less pain than the kingdom in range they wanted to war.

Very much like in our case when after I found out it was your kingdom you said things like "If I had known it was you, things would have went differently". You knew it was me, I signed my msg with my name. And another case of "oh, I am not in game monarch so I don't know". You not seeing the message is highly unlikely.

Citadela , we did none of those things you accuse us of. I tried , starting during the WSK vs SS war, to show Francis that his actions hurt the game, the player base. Several people did.

The Alliance argues they don't like what FS is doing but they have no way to police it because it isn't against the rules of the game or "the community"
I am saying if the community thinks it's wrong it should be against their rules.
How is it less bad if someone discourages lots of people to continue playing, than if someone breaks a deal with a kingdom that most likely has the fortitude to strike back another time for example? Is a crown more important than the future of Utopia?

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if ppl quit because they get hit, they shouldnt have started playing this game at all.. getting hit is just as part of the game as hitting others, but i can understand that its much easier to try to change the rules, than craft strategies and navigating through charts/wars better.. i highly advise smaller kds who listen to those bs about 'bullies' and 'fairness', to understand this is a strategy and war game & there are dozens of ways to fight off bigger kds without resorting to foul play such us hitting into wars.. just explore the mechanics and learn how they work day by day, and you will get the real satisfaction from the game when you find your way to success through those explorations..

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

Palem you are welcome to stop by any time. #pluribus on irc utonet. That is not at all what we are doing. As a matter of fact I was just yelled at by a monarch for "just" sending a mail instead of hitting. The mail did however end the conflict, without being threatening. And after 5 minutes of cool down the yeller, who was clearly frustrated and understandably agitated, realized that this fixed the situation for his kingdom as well as the opponent.
Essentially we are helping out smaller kingdoms that otherwise would fall through the cracks. Trying to keep it fun for those players.
How is that a bad thing exactly?

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Don't get the wrong idea. I have no problem with what you're doing. I didn't particularly have a problem with you razing FS. What I have a problem with is your justifications and your attitude towards other players. You (as far as I've seen) approach things from a very "They are evil and we are righteous" mentality. If this would have been the conversation:

"Why are you razing FS?"
"Because they are dicks and we're not going to let them crown."
"Did you break any deals?"
"One kingdom wanted to, but we talked them out of it."

You wouldn't have heard a peep out of me. If you want to form an alliance to root out ****play, by all means go ahead. If you want to start an alliance for the sole effort of raze-killing FS and keeping them on 22-25 green provinces until they disband (not saying that's what you're doing), by all means, go right ahead. If you're not breaking any rules, you're free to play however you want, but every action has consequences. That's why Utopia is awesome.

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Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN

if ppl quit because they get hit, they shouldnt have started playing this game at all.. getting hit is just as part of the game as hitting others, but i can understand that its much easier to try to change the rules, than craft strategies and navigating through charts/wars better.. i highly advise smaller kds who listen to those bs about 'bullies' and 'fairness', to understand this is a strategy and war game & there are dozens of ways to fight off bigger kds without resorting to foul play such us hitting into wars.. just explore the mechanics and learn how they work day by day, and you will get the real satisfaction from the game when you find your way to success through those explorations..

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Is not the getting hit part, is probably the excessive getting hit part. You should see the distinction its quite obvious. Its rich that you talk about explore the mechanics and learn how they work when you were faced with a overwhelming enemy last age you resorted calling in friends to wave that kingdom instead. :)

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Originally Posted by Korp

Is not the getting hit part, is probably the excessive getting hit part. You should see the distinction its quite obvious. Its rich that you talk about explore the mechanics and learn how they work when you were faced with a overwhelming enemy last age you resorted calling in friends to wave that kingdom instead. :)

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The initial reaction they had to the ED situation last age was unfortunate and everyone would agree that it was not appropriate. But reparations were made to the kd wronged and in the end the kd wronged was ok with the ending. You'd only have a leg to stand on saying this kind of stuff if it had not been resolved in such a way that the kd wronged didn't get anything for it and FS was allowed to do their **** play unhindered. Obviously not the case. It was a situation where a kd wanted 3-4 waves for a cf which is well outside of the confines of normal game play. Only after learning the history between the 2 kds did the kd(s) stepping in realize they were in the wrong. Without the information it just looked bad for ED. They paid for that mistake and made reparations to ED for it. People bringing up situations where people already paid the price and resolved things diplomatically is getting pretty damn old. You have no right to complain since you were not wronged in the situation and the kd who was ended up satisfied with the resolution. It would be different if they and the kds involved on their side had gotten away with it unscathed and if the situation had not been policed.

Palem is the finest troll these here boards have ever seen

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Originally Posted by flogger

Palem is the finest troll these here boards have ever seen

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http://i.imgur.com/lLJVVf7.gif

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Originally Posted by Palem

I agree. Game needs players and we especially need to retain the players we already have. What I don't agree with is that Goodwitch and her task force will cause less people to quit than the way it kingdoms are already actioned. How is Goodwitch razing people somehow better for the playerbase than Zauper razing people?

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The taskforce has not and isn't planning on razing anyone. It includes players and monarchs from kingdoms such as Nobles and Dungeondwellers for example. Players that have been in the game a long time and can help others with tactics, diplomacy and strategy.
There are/were(off and on) people idling in the channel from BB, Emeriti and CR among others if you don't want to take my word for it.
The taskforce has nothing to do with this dispute.
Chose the word taskforce to avoid the word alliance as to not give the wrong impression. I see that taskforce apparently wasn't a good choice either. It's new and we'll work on it.

Just read your other post , figured no need to quote it. We(my kingdom)were not in an alliance to hit into that war. The taskforce did not raze into that war Please read Zauper's or Pale's post again. My kingdom hit FS before the war already. I still don't believe SS organized an alliance but if they did, we were not part of it.

I don't claim to be perfect. I make lots n lots of mistakes. But when I do, I admit to them. And I did.
I also apologize, and when I do I mean it. I also strive to not repeat mistakes I made.
I apologized to the community that we razed, it was wrong. We got punished and that's fine.
The reason we razed in the first place is still a valid one though.

There are other people that will twist and turn facts, intimidate people and call in favors to avoid admitting they were wrong.

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Originally Posted by Pale

The initial reaction they had to the ED situation last age was unfortunate and everyone would agree that it was not appropriate. But reparations were made to the kd wronged and in the end the kd wronged was ok with the ending. You'd only have a leg to stand on saying this kind of stuff if it had not been resolved in such a way that the kd wronged didn't get anything for it and FS was allowed to do their **** play unhindered. Obviously not the case. It was a situation where a kd wanted 3-4 waves for a cf which is well outside of the confines of normal game play. Only after learning the history between the 2 kds did the kd(s) stepping in realize they were in the wrong. Without the information it just looked bad for ED. They paid for that mistake and made reparations to ED for it. People bringing up situations where people already paid the price and resolved things diplomatically is getting pretty damn old. You have no right to complain since you were not wronged in the situation and the kd who was ended up satisfied with the resolution. It would be different if they and the kds involved on their side had gotten away with it unscathed and if the situation had not been policed.

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It does however show that they didn't learn from their mistakes. They made up for it, but only because they were caught. They are still acting the same way and have for ages, they just try harder not to get caught. Unfortunately the smaller kingdoms will never get the chance to be fairly compensated. Their cases will never be heard.

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

It does however show that they didn't learn from their mistakes. They made up for it, but only because they were caught. They are still acting the same way and have for ages, they just try harder not to get caught. Unfortunately the smaller kingdoms will never get the chance to be fairly compensated. Their cases will never be heard.

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really? actually, we learned a lot from that incident.. after other kds reaction to what we did, we didnt talk crap for days & worked on our strat instead to be on the hunting side rather than being hunted.. i think this age is a good example about our learning curve..

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Originally Posted by Pale

The initial reaction they had to the ED situation last age was unfortunate and everyone would agree that it was not appropriate. But reparations were made to the kd wronged and in the end the kd wronged was ok with the ending. You'd only have a leg to stand on saying this kind of stuff if it had not been resolved in such a way that the kd wronged didn't get anything for it and FS was allowed to do their **** play unhindered. Obviously not the case. It was a situation where a kd wanted 3-4 waves for a cf which is well outside of the confines of normal game play. Only after learning the history between the 2 kds did the kd(s) stepping in realize they were in the wrong. Without the information it just looked bad for ED. They paid for that mistake and made reparations to ED for it. People bringing up situations where people already paid the price and resolved things diplomatically is getting pretty damn old. You have no right to complain since you were not wronged in the situation and the kd who was ended up satisfied with the resolution. It would be different if they and the kds involved on their side had gotten away with it unscathed and if the situation had not been policed.

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But the issues is that LoRD_SaMPuaN is right now preaching something he cant do himself. Hes telling others kingdoms how to behave but when faced in a situation similiar instead of doing what hes preached he resorted unethical moves. That is the hilarious part.

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Originally Posted by Korp

But the issues is that LoRD_SaMPuaN is right now preaching something he cant do himself. Hes telling others kingdoms how to behave but when faced in a situation similiar instead of doing what hes preached he resorted unethical moves. That is the hilarious part.

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So every time someone makes a mistake and attones for it we're gonna just ignore them when it comes to questions of ethics? Ok, that's reasonable (sarcasm). No one's history is perfect. No one's. You just like throwing stones at someone because you either don't like them and/or it supports what you're saying. They learned from that situation and moved on. Can't you?

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Originally Posted by Pale

So every time someone makes a mistake and attones for it we're gonna just ignore them when it comes to questions of ethics? Ok, that's reasonable (sarcasm). No one's history is perfect. No one's. You just like throwing stones at someone because you either don't like them and/or it supports what you're saying. They learned from that situation and moved on. Can't you?

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Oh wait, so you claim FS didnt know what they were doing when they asked friends to wave ED? They were well aware of what they were doing. It wasnt a mistake, it was planned. Learning from that situation implies that they werent aware what they were doing was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Korp

Oh wait, so you claim FS didnt know what they were doing when they asked friends to wave ED? They were well aware of what they were doing. It wasnt a mistake, it was planned. Learning from that situation implies that they werent aware what they were doing was wrong.

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So that's what you're reading out of it? Are you serious? I've already said FS was at fault for bringing in help when it was revenge for the preious age. It's the other kds who are at fault for stepping in in a revenge situation. So both the caller and the called were wrong. You're either the biggest troll on the planet or unable to understand english if you think FS didn't know what they were doing. They weren't accepting turnaround as fair play for the previous age and that is their mistake. Where in any of my correspondence did I clear FS of blame here? Stop trying to twist my words.

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Originally Posted by Pale

So that's what you're reading out of it? Are you serious? I've already said FS was at fault for bringing in help when it was revenge for the preious age. It's the other kds who are at fault for stepping in in a revenge situation. So both the caller and the called were wrong. You're either the biggest troll on the planet or unable to understand english if you think FS didn't know what they were doing. They weren't accepting turnaround as fair play for the previous age and that is their mistake. Where in any of my correspondence did I clear FS of blame here? Stop trying to twist my words.

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I missed that whole situation. How were the called punished then?

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

I missed that whole situation. How were the called punished then?

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'Punished?'

Excuse me, I must have missed something. Why should their fairplay friends punish them?

Punishment needs to fit the crime, overkill is only a cure for boredom.

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Originally Posted by Anri

Punishment needs to fit the crime, overkill is only a cure for boredom.

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Yeah tell me about it, dont remember it ever going to year 17.

Think of it. Utopia would be boring without us Freeaks.. . Happy NY folks, we Freeaks love you all, and we are not sorry coz Freaks is who we are.

PS bring back the Dark Elbes, texn drives me insane...

Members of BB helped organize the action. They took responsibility for it by giving acres/honour/resources to ED as payment/punishment for the crimes. ED said they were ok with that and case was closed.

How's Donald Trump doing?

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Originally Posted by TheOne

How's Donald Trump doing?

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Really rich, just trust him.

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Originally Posted by Palem

I left because I was no longer having fun. I would never actively turn people away from the game, but if you aren't getting any joy from playing a game, you shouldn't play it. Simple as that. As I explained in the thread, there wasn't anything that "happened" and I absolutely considered POINT jumping into VM as a victory. We beat him, so he had to hide.


Pyro and the U wanted to try their hand at whoring. If FS wants to be the biggest, baddest, warringest kingdom the game's ever seen, that's their choice. You don't get to dictate the goals of other kingdoms.


That's part of the game though, building your kingdom up. It's not just roster management. It's making friends and enemies. It's making it known what you will and won't stand for and then (hopefully) sticking by that. It's getting better at diplo and making connections with other kingdoms.



I agree. Game needs players and we especially need to retain the players we already have. What I don't agree with is that Goodwitch and her task force will cause less people to quit than the way it kingdoms are already actioned. How is Goodwitch razing people somehow better for the playerbase than Zauper razing people?

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1. Come back. Be miserable. It's better for the game.

2. How's that? But seriously because it's bad for the game. You're going to make me build an anti-diplo alliance. Word gets around someone wants a deal they get GB.

3. I think it's important for the community at large(the forum rife with top presence)to recognize that most of the server doesn't want to play walkie-talkie. The ones that then rise to the ranks get some shlock about learning diplo and apparently the hard way. This basically puts an up and coming kingdom in the position of preemptive razing via proxy provinces planted though out the sub20. That's exactly the short answer to overcoming the diplo environment. Nobody wants to do that, so I'm suggesting we respect our tiers and put the best foot forward. Do I have to address stalling to? This system leaves the rising kingdoms little choice.

The word on the street is these kingdoms are lurking around taking easy wars, but again I point out that in SS case they already warred Ascension and in the case of Ruthless boast a 103% opponent size. From what I've seen in Jerks, the war tier is competitive and generally seek competition. Heck, War Monkeys are hitting us now and they get bad press. We might be a paper lion, but it still indicates the will to test their mettle.

So short and sweet; be a steward of the game. Get in front of it and communicate with the war tier because communication isn't the war tier way. Offer diplo advice before they ding on the radar. It's not strategy advice; they still won't know the meta. Just a friendly reminder. I know you guys can see a war kingdom so it's not an excuse that they suddenly appeared in range.

4. Goodwitch as stated before was reacting to a wrong. If that reaction wasn't there then the bullying goes on in silence. We need to let the top know that there should be restraint in how low things should go. And like I said, these things take time. I'd prefer we be constructive. I'd like to see the tops agree with that. Bad taste is bad taste.

You can give me all the middle ground arguments in some philosophical debate but I believe in good and I will work toward good solutions. Good how? Not the way you're handling things. You're indifference is disappointing but it is who you are. I'm not against you and I'm not against the tops, but I want the positions to be respected. If you won't let me suggest respect then we have to have a combative solution.

We are talking about people who should grasp the idea of nuance and savvy. I'm not underestimating the maturity of the players involved. Knowing this I expect sensible action, but all I saw was dragon breath. Let's rewind and try this minus who screwed who.

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Originally Posted by StratOcastle

4. Goodwitch as stated before was reacting to a wrong.......

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No, she/he was not. Goodwitch was reacting to normal game play. ***** as he/she must, it was normal game play.

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Originally Posted by Pale

The initial reaction they had to the ED situation last age was unfortunate and everyone would agree that it was not appropriate. But reparations were made to the kd wronged and in the end the kd wronged was ok with the ending. You'd only have a leg to stand on saying this kind of stuff if it had not been resolved in such a way that the kd wronged didn't get anything for it and FS was allowed to do their **** play unhindered. Obviously not the case. It was a situation where a kd wanted 3-4 waves for a cf which is well outside of the confines of normal game play. Only after learning the history between the 2 kds did the kd(s) stepping in realize they were in the wrong. Without the information it just looked bad for ED. They paid for that mistake and made reparations to ED for it. People bringing up situations where people already paid the price and resolved things diplomatically is getting pretty damn old. You have no right to complain since you were not wronged in the situation and the kd who was ended up satisfied with the resolution. It would be different if they and the kds involved on their side had gotten away with it unscathed and if the situation had not been policed.

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This is a load of BS.

ED went after FS and offered them a CF, along the lines of 3 waves total, instead of accepting FS ran off and BB/Pyro/FS organised Pyro to wave ED after FS players bragged to ED it was going to happen. All parties then lied about it, until Pyros monarch sent logs to a ED player clearly showing the KDs talking about and organising the GB. Now if he'd not done that FS would have tried to lie their way out of the situation and all parties would have said "it's a coincidence". The problem comes when this age SS declare FS and people who hate FS take it upon themselves to start hitting them (I have no idea who SS are, but we razed FS), even though KDs involved have said SS didn't ask for the help "fair play" have decided that they must have.

So what we have here are a bunch of KDs willing to GB people on zero evidence, they could have went after the KDs doing the razing but didn't, the same bunch of KDs who are willing to organise GBs on other KDs if they believe they can get away with it.

As for the situation being "resolved" between ED, you have no idea what you're talking about. FS managed to escape a kicking rather than having to fight ED 1v1, Pyro got to keep all of the land they gained in their hits and BB offered to repay the honour which they didn't need and was virtually impossible to take from them, to the point I believe parth went and asked for GC off them instead as it'd have taken weeks to recover. The other option was for ED to keep getting GBed while Pyro and FS doubled them, so that's some real good "reparations" when 2 out of their 3 KDs gained and one lost nothing of worth.

If you can't see the hypocritical bull**** of a KD waving smaller KDs after running away crying when it happens to them, then I don't know what to say. There's a reason many people dislike FS, might want to look at their actions over the last +3 ages and consider why that might be.