look at orc gains mod, or plunder caps - you cant break hard caps. This is pretty standard afaik.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulimo
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look at orc gains mod, or plunder caps - you cant break hard caps. This is pretty standard afaik.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulimo
Yes. I confirm everything in game, which is why I'm not surprised that it acts how it acts. If you had applied your own formula to the game you would have seen that it didn't match.
I changed the number to 25 to get roughly the same bonus. 10% merchant banks give the bonus of 25% normal banks. 15% merchant banks give the bonus of 50% normal banks.
"Also, how then do we calculate the hard cash doubling (25 gc per banks to 50 gc per bank)?"
%banks*land*25*be*2
or
#banks*25*be*2
doesn't seem that difficult.
also, check this link out: http://forums.joltonline.com/showthr...ential-changes
specifically this:
"x2 as effective on tds and banks, what does this mean: If you have 10% Banks, or TDs, the game will calc as if you had 20%"
you had fair warning. it was made clear how the effectiveness should be implemented.
1) The cap for banks is 31.25% income.
2) Your Buildings page doesn't include Race or Personality Effects.
3) So for a merchant if your buildings page lists income bonus from banks at less than 15.625% then simply multiply it by 2
4) For a Merchant if your buildings page lists income bonus from banks at more than 15.625% then you are at the cap of 31.25%
5) Assuming 100% Building Efficiency you will cap out bank effects at slightly less than 14.65% Banks
6) At lower BE the %Banks needed to hit cap goes up at higher BE it goes down.
7) See my previous post (or look it up on the wiki) to see how to calculate things.
It doesn't even calculate it like you have 20%. Its BETTER than was announced. You should be HAPPY.
Looks like the cows that went shep win this one.
"It doesn't even calculate it like you have 20%. Its BETTER than was announced. You should be HAPPY."
nonetheless, there was no reason to assume the cap could be broken. that was the point of my post. :p
From my building page - 150 banks ..........Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenleone
7500 gc .... 31.25% income
So my internal affairs advisor DOES show race/persnonality bonus ... or am I wrong?
Now, when I format using Angel, Angel doesnt show the effects ... here it is from Angel:
3. 3,750gc, +22.29% income
Ok I'm not merchant or Rogue for that matter this age. I was simply going off the assumption that they still were not including the race/personality mods in the Buildings page. If they changed that aspect (even in part) then hopefully a mod can check and let us know for sure.
So what I'm getting from this is that "Double effectiveness" means you get double the normal effect for whatever % of that building you have, but hard caps are still in place.
the didn't include them earlier but there was talk of getting that page to be clearer and include racials- i wont be able to confirm until tomorrow though
Yes. There is no cap on flat rate bonuses though, so the 50gc is for all banks, even if you have 100%.
So are banks still bugged in that the effect is not virtually doubling the percentage of banks, but instead doubling (and capping) the resulting bonuses? And if this is not a bug, will dens for rogue act the same?
I can confirm it right now. My internal affairs advisor clearly shows my race/personality bonus. Anyone else can simply look at their page an see also. The question is ..... Are they going to delete this handy addition to the page or are they going to delete it when they "fix" the current issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Ok - taken from wiki:
Raw Income = [(2.75*Employed Peasants) + ((2.75/3)*Unemployed Peasants) + (0.5*Prisoners) + (Banks*25*BE)]
[(2.75 * 11050) + (2.75/3 * 3307) + (0) * (150*2*100)] = 63418.9
Modified Income = Raw Income * Plague * Riots * Bank % Bonus * Income Sci * Honor Income Mod
* Race Mod * Personality Modifier * Monarchy * Dragon
63418.9 * 31.5% (+19976.9) * 3.4%(+2156.2)* 20% (+12683.78)* 30%(+19025.67) = 117261.45gc/h
My state advisor says: 87,024gc
I am no math wizard, as you can see. And using the wiki formula for modified income is a pain in the butt, they could have written it for idiots like me an just said (figure out the %age into real numbers an just add them - which is what I did. EDIT - after looking at the wiki formula for modded income is it even right? Or am I just not doing my math right. When I add the (+XXX) numbers to my formula I get the right answer but when I do it Wikis way I get a number almost DOUBLE that of what I have posted above. Maybe I just need to learn a higher level of math, like third grade or something.
Did I do the above right?
Assuming you meant you had 150 banks:
2.75*11050+2.75/3*3307+150*50*1.00=40919
40919*1.315*1.034*1.2*1.3=86795
Still off from your throne room, but closer.
No I can see several things that don't make sence there. First off the (0) * (150*2*100) makes no sense (is that supposed to be banks direct income?)
If 150 banks then it should be (150 * 25 * 1)
BE of 100% is a multiplier of 1 (if Merchant doubles the raw part as well then a 2 is needed there as well)
Next you need to convert % bonuses in the modified income section to decimal rather than percentile form (ie +31.5% becomes 1.315 ect)
Edit: Hanoumatoi's calculation is correct (again assuming 150 banks) and the difference could easily be accounted from science (the listed sci% is rounded whats used in the actual calculation isn't rounded).
What's 1.2 in your calc?
I think he's Human/Merchant.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG
Screwed up the BE ... told you I was an idiot at math. Third grage remedial math, here I come !!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanoumatoi
Yes I was doing the %age math wrong. I figured out that part now.
Thanks everyone.
banks are doing what we were told they would do, what is wrong with this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yadda9To5
Just had a question then ..... if the math from Wiki is right (we just checked it so it should be right?) and the numbers are in line with my State page ... then is there a Merchant bug now? Or did the fix we want fixed really fix a bug that we were all enjoying in the first place ?
I came in here complaining when I seen my income drop 30% on the hour tick and assumed it was a bug but didnt do the math until now. After further reflection I have to ask - was there a bug in the first place?
there was a bug that gave you too much income, yes.
Then this entire thread is pointless then isnt it? Arent we all complaining about a bug that doesn't exist? A bug that got fixed.
So it would seem... But I'm still concerned that in the Age 50 Changes thread bishop said it would be calculated by simply doubling the amount of land you had assigned to that building... So 10% Banks would work as 20% Banks, same for TD's...
But clearly that's not the case, so peoples assumptions about the relative strength of the Rogue / Merchant Perso would have been totally incorrect when picking them...
For TD's for example you can now max out the effects at 16% land, which would not be the case under the method bishop outlined in the Age 50 Changes thread... So people have not had the correct info when picking their Race / Perso, which I think is an unfair situation...
(For the record I wouldn't have picked either perso anyway, but I know there's a few people who like a/t in my KD that might be a tad annoyed...)
Well, like utopia_doc said in the previous post, we were told that x% of a building would function as 2*x% of the building. What we get instead is that x% still functions as x%, but instead the bonus is doubled (so that the effect doesn't suffer from the diminishing returns from having a larger percentage of a building). Which is better for both rogue and merchant. I'd just like to know if this is still a bug or intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
i said the game calcs as if you had x2 the amount - this is what it does so i see no discrepencyQuote:
Originally Posted by utopia_doc
It doesn't do so though (unless the info in this topic is wrong)
Say you have 10% dens, which work as 20%. Then losses are MIN(0,95;4*BE*((.2)-(0.2^2))) = 4 * 0.16 = -64% losses. But what we get is MIN(0,95;4*BE*((.1)-(0.1^2)) * 2) = 4 * 0.09 * 2 = -72% losses.
I suppose the wording "twice as effective" is rather ambiguous. And i wouldn't be surprised if there are rogues/merchants that assumed the 2nd calculation would be used, it's just not what I read in "twice as effective" combined with the explanation in the age 50 topic.
Hi Bishop, what you stated was:
"x2 as effective on tds and banks, what does this mean: If you have 10% Banks, or TDs, the game will calc as if you had 20%"
So it seemed as though a Rogue with 15% TD's and 100% BE would have got:
Total_Effect (TPA) = 3 * 1 * 30 * (1 - 0.3)
Total_Effect (TPA) = 63%
Total_Effect (losses) = 4 * 30 * (1 - 0.3)
Total_Effect (losses) = 84%
However, what they get:
Total_Effect (TPA) = 3 * 1 * 15 * (1 - 0.15)
Total_Effect (TPA) = 38.25%
Total_Effect (losses) = 4 * 15 * (1 - 0.15)
Total_Effect (losses) = 51%
Doubled to 76%, capped at 75% increased Thief Effect. And 102% less losses, capped at 95% less losses...
Quite a difference...
I have just run some calculations of my own, and In my opinion the calculation for Banks with Merchant personality now seem to be working correctly. My State page says Income is 50282 and my calculation based on Wiki Formula gives 50303. The difference is possibly due to small rounding errors.
I can also say that when people read (like I did) that Banks would be twice as effective I was thinking - Whao, that will be epic. I have just ran the calculations above, but without the Merchant modifiers (ie taken away the 30% more income and used 25gc's per bank instead of 50). That calculation showed I would be looking at an Income of 34694... So running Merchant for me is not that a bad of an increase but still probably not what people perceived....
Before the age start I didn't know what income I could expect because I didn't calculate it. When I was getting quite a significant income over non merchant provs in the Kingdom I was like - Yeah this is why Merchant was my choice. And I was also a little miffed when I lost the income after various maintainance resets..... At the end of the day I'm now happy that we are playing the game fairly and I will have to make do with less Elites now - hehehe. DOH :(
It does since the update. Look again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenleone
As I said in a post after the one you quoted there prot when ryshad73 pointed that out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenleone
They haven't listed Race/Personality effects in the building page in the past and quoted from the in game building advisor page:
What can I say I just don't know what is and isn't now included in the building advisor page now obviously doubled building effects are but I don't know what else might or might not be.Quote:
Listed below are the net effects of each of our buildings, not including personality or racial bonuses.
You people really thought Merchant would double the Bank Cap? Nobody EVER said the Cap would double.
While you retards are running 50% Banks, hoping for no Cap limit, the smart Humans have built the right amount of banks to hit the 31.25% Cap Limit, but also used all that extra land to build Homes. Increasing the population, to increase the income even more.
As I sit here now. I can say @ 18hrs before OOP, I will have 3.1m GCs, 5.8k Soldiers drafted. By the time I come OOP, I will have roughly 10k+ Off, 15k+ Def, over 3 raw TPA and over 20k Sciences learned. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Human/Merchants income.
If you all really thought the Cap would be ignored, why didn't anyone ask that question? Instead you all look like fools.
"I will have roughly 10k+ Off, 15k+ Def, over 3 raw TPA and over 20k Sciences learned."
thats impressive?
Time for a small apology. Let's just say I was too annoyed to discuss these things nicely. Of course it makes sense not to increase the 31.25% to 62.5% for merchants, that's simply too much. However, there have been plenty of changes in the past that were overkill, so why wouldn't this be one?
That's at least how I reasoned when I found out my banks gave over 50% income bonus. I had already concluded the assumptions stated in the forum about it counting as a double % of banks were just wrong, perhaps misunderstood. That is, as long as you assume this calculation with doubling the % of banks for the effects will also double the % of banks for the diminishing of the effects. Little did I know it was explained like that in the potential changes: I have only looked at the final ones.
So, I simply assumed everyone in the forums had misinterpreted the changes, or I had misunderstood their explanations. And I was happy about choosing merchant and decided to build more banks asap. And of course, without a warning (bug fixed message or something would have been nice), the whole thing was gone again. And I was pissed, since I had just been calculating a load of worthless numbers and could start all over again.
On the other hand, I did enjoy extra income for a fair amount of oop time. And the effect was definitely bigger than the undead/sages bug. So I shouldn't complain. The extra banks give 50 gc raw income per banks anyway, it's not like they're useless.
I do still wonder though. How does it now work? The cap was fixed, but does 15% banks max out income bonus or does 25%? I still have over 25% banks, so my income bonus is maxed, but perhaps someone can confirm the effects of under 25% banks?
EDIT: I guess the TDs thread confirms 15% maxes out TDS, so it should also max banks income effects.
Banks are twice as effective....so do you still get gc bonus after effects are Maxed...
im running 18.8% as a merch and it is still maxed so 15% or the 14.65- wateva// seems to be the magic number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulimo
i do think you still get +30% on all other banks after the 15% as they are adding to your income anyways.
Indeed. Raw income from banks is added to the raw income from peasants and after that ALL modifiers will apply.
And I'm now under 25% and it's indeed still 31.25% income bonus. Good stuff :-)