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there is still disadvantages of taking anon...in war or not war...but it certainly encourage hits and offensive environment on the game...you can go anon/WS...if you likeQuote:
Originally Posted by Lordwarallied
I don't think anon war is that gay..lol...taking anon is still able to be encounter by chaining and taking SOM? the current changes is still encourage ambush..
Could we please change the dragon slaying around.
Races that have higher spec values should be able to kill the dragon with that number value versus just 5.
So Avian should be killing it for 6 per spec and so on. This is only fair imo as those races have to send out same number at another but lose more def or off in doing so.
encouraging off is not necesserly a good thing. And ther eis no disadvanatges if everyone does it. it will create opposite effects in which attacks wil be longer, and bushes will disapears. Thats why those leets change is wrong. Elites shoulkd have defense properties and opposite practical effects from what it was intended, which in this case is more aggressivity, is a fail change. If you want to create more aggresivity, you reduce attack times. period.Quote:
Originally Posted by zercousy
P.S: one last thing. you can only attack as many times as you have gens. regardless of the changes. bt you can make those gens attack more often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabuazero
The idea behind Human is awesome. THey can use their added population to become Mage or Thief focused, and choose their bonus (via pumping wizzies or thieves). This in contrast to Faery which gains a flat +30% for both t & m. But Humans can use a boost since their added population is going to go entirely to a heavier NW defense. In the very least, cut their elite NW down to 4.75 or something.
Let's keep in mind how much added "damage" Humans are going to do. +15% damage compared to a Faery. I'll take the +30% success rate and better spell book any day.
So my suggestion is to change the human elite. 4/6, 5.5 NW 750 (same cost per defense as faery)
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Over all:
Good changes. I see ways to play with every race or personality.
Like i mentioned before, remove 5% thief bonus to avians. add a buff of your choice. Buff dwarf with kills bonus or drag immunity. make UD more virulant and ud have an age in which every race is playable
I agree. With the current changes, a province a few peasants above 50% gets no bonus at all, while a province in the same province that is a few peasants under 50% will suddenly end up at 70% of its max pop. This can lead to some provinces being left behind a slowing down the rest of the KD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan
I would suggest either setting a minimum % of max pop, and everyone bellow that at war end is brought up there (be it 2/3 or 70%... with +500% birth rates it shouldn't make a big difference), or you go with a bonus that gets smaller and smaller the closer you get to your max pop (i.e. Someone with only 40% of his max pop would receive a 50% bonus. Someone with as mush as 80% of his max pop would receive a 2% bonus).
Of course, there is nothing dramatic there, as with the other end of war bonus, rebuilding becomes much faster and cheaper, but it would be more fair for all the players in a KD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordwarallied
why longer attack hours when everyone get a little more off and lesser def??
do you see everyone attacking in game? no..and it won't be...but its help to getting war..and target.
New human sucks. They can't become unbreakable like Faeries, and their bonuses suggest playing as a t/m more than anything. The moment they send out armies they get owned hard by the orc gods that will run the server.
Seriously, might as well call the game Orctopia.
explain to me why would someone with 10/1 elites would not anon? That in itself increase attack times and prevent bushes, kds who sees the 10/1 elite will anon back for not being bush easily. Bush were already a reason why there was more attacks as the armies comes home earlier.. There is already TONS of anon on the server for that reason. More off does not mean more attack. If you have 4 gens and 12 hours attack, and the other guy has 4 gens and 8 hours attacks, who will attack more? offense has NOTHING to do with the amount of attacks you can do. It just changes the potential gains. Regardless if i know or not who attack me, you still have to explain how off ALONE increases the amount of attacks. people are already playing high off and low def. that change doesnt change much already. It will make it worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by zercousy
Please dont derail this thread with zercousy's idea to destroy the game.
If the prov goes from 1200 to 1000 acres that's still 100,000 more bpa than you would have earned this age. Hitting the median provs will reduce bpa gains at end of war, just like max gaining would reduce them if it were changed to average acres.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahab
wait i read this again....how does median hurt someone with a chained prov at all compared to mean.. Point being that Mean=average...meadian= thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
and protecting a SINGLE prov in the dead center of land of your kd for 100-200 acre means alot in an orc kd where u get 600 leet credits for wining a war. Its alot easier to protect 1 player in the middle of your kd that to protect 100-200 acres across all your kd's prov and puts a giant focus on one player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahab
yes but a single player looseing 200 acres causes the kd to lose 500,000 books and 15,000 spec credits. Thats enough books/credits to impact the concept of how you war.Quote:
Originally Posted by lastunicorn
Seems strange to have a race that by defintion wont be able to be hit for random attacks or be massacred if fully pumped, and thus MUST be conquested if you want to hurt them in nw range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
He has to understand that,CounterOrder. 1 M off with one gen is one attack. 1 M off with 4 gens in 12-24 hours is 4-8 attacks. Simple math he wil have to understand. Versus anon who reduces all attacks possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by CounTerOrdeR
Current humans are why attempting an A/T/M race doesn't work. No TPA/WPA bonuses severely hampers the usefulness of their damage penalty and makes them completely inferior to halfling (Cheaper, more effective thieves with extra stealth, who will easily hit the damage cap anyway) and Faery (Better DPA, TPA, WPA, and spellbook, despite the ~22% population difference)
Humans can't cow, they'll get absolutely annihilated by Halflings/Faeries and then hit by races with 9 offense elites vs. their 5/5 army. Humans really can't attack without getting crushed to the ground and may as well run all dspec, especially with their networth heavy elite. (If our cow were human, it'd never have survived the Simians war in such perfect shape and current human is drastically superior to new one)
Humans can be inferior thieves to halflings with less attacking ability or inferior thieves and mages to faeries with barely higher attacking ability.
I can't think of any use for human as its built right now, its among the weakest races I've ever seen and I've played Utopia for more than a decade. Either give the elite more defense or reduce its networth first and foremost (Basically, they're gnomes), but they need even more than that, unless you want to see Orcs/Uds doubletapping all home humans in networth range with a human that can barely single them back with their armies out.
I can't even think of how to fix the race right now. The best use is to launch a cow immediately and turtle for an entire month or two to not give ops to anyone. Only then does a human have any chance of being useful. (And chances are, it'll be FB'd immediately in your first real conflict unless you manage to get it really good WPA)
If you think this Human is one of the weakest races of all time I question your experience. I'll take the +10% pop, FoK, ToG, WS, and a turtle elite. Fine with me. And if this is weak, then so was the 5/5 +10% pop halfers/gnomes that we've had for most of Utopia's history that somehow managed to do ok. I'd throw a Sage on this Human and have some fun. Weakest of all time would have to be totally unplayable like a few of those old DEs and Dwarves we had. This Human is totally playable.
slower, more thief oriented. I guess I can get behind this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Love it.Quote:
Dwarf
+ 10% BE
+ 30% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
Free Building Construction
Can use credits to raze buildings
+ 50% Food consumption
Accelerated Construction not available
Spell book: Quick Feet, Fanaticism, Fools Gold, Clearsight
Elite: 7/3, 750gc, 6.5NW
6/6 army, but super-duper mages. I guess I could get behind that...Quote:
Elves
+50% WPA
+1 mana in war
+ 1 defence specialist strength
Spellbook: Pitfalls, Mages Fury, Amnesia, Nightmare
Elite: 6/4, 700gc, 6NW
I don't understand why you hate faery so much. With all of their bonuses, there is a better version of the same bonus out there. The only exception being their spell book and even that took a pretty serious hit by losing MS. Not only that, but you give them the two most absurdly awful penalties in the whole game. If you're going to force faery players into playing a dead role, the least you could do is make them king of their role.Quote:
Faery
+30% damage on spells and ops
+30% WPA and TPA
-10% Population
Offensive Specialist Strength -2
Spellbook: All racial spells
Elite: 3/8, 1000gc, 7.5NW
For the love of god, loosen up that pop penalty please. That or give them their +50% WPA/TPA, or give them +50% op damage. Only one though...
Worst race, hands down. Doesn't make a very good TM. By comparison it doesn't make a very good hybrid.Quote:
Halflings
+50% TPA
+1 stealth
- 50% thief cost
-15% Birth Rate
Spellbook: Invisibility, Town Watch
Soldiers: 2/2
Elite: 5/6, 600gc, 5.75NW
I guess humans are the new gnomes? I don't understand giving them ToG when their costs are so low. I still don't see any sense in them being more damaging TMs as Faery though...Quote:
Humans
+10% Population
+ 50% Thievery Damage (Sabotage Ops)
+ 50% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
Spellbook: Tree of Gold, Fountain of Knowledge, War Spoils
Elite: 5/5, 500gc, 5.5NW
Orc is so good it's not even funny.Quote:
Orcs
+20% gains
Can train elites with credits
-50% Combat Instant Spell Damage and Sabotage Damage
Spellbook: Bloodlust, Fanaticism, Aggression, Shadowlight, Reflect Magic
Elite: 9/2, 850gc, 7.25NW
Meh, I have the feeling undead is only here because they didn't want to remove them this age. Why does Undead have chastity though? That's one thing I don't get.Quote:
The Undead
-50% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Successful land attacks convert specialists to elites
Spreads and is immune to The Plague
No food needed
- 25% science effectiveness
Spellbook: Greater Protection, Town Watch, Animate Dead, Chastity
Elite: 9/3, 1000gc, 7.5NW
I actually love this change. As it was, Elves were pretty mediocre hybrids... The main problem being balancing an offense with mage-like WPA and having enough TPA to defend runes, all without having any innate WPA/TPA bonuses. That meant they were second-rate Mages and poor attackers, even for a hybrid. An elf Mage essentially needed to be an M/t to protect runes already, which left little room for hybridization, and even then only at the expense of much lower effective WPA than Faeries and lower offense than most hybrids. So they could suck at two things or be good mages and barely attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
The +50% WPA change actually allows them to be competitive as a Mage without having to spend so much population on their raw WPA. An elf/mystic will arguably be the best at duration-spells, but Faeries still have the upper hand with instant spells due to their 30% bonus, and Faeries still benefit from the fact that M/T compliment each other so well. So neither one is made useless, but they can synergize.
I like this change as is : )
As for Faeries, I can agree on loosening up the -10% pop bonus if they didn't have 3/8 elites... that allows them to maintain higher defense with a lower draft rate than any other race in the game. If it takes your army 25% less population to defend your land, compared to a 6-defense spec or elite, doesn't that already counter -10% population penalties overall? If Faeries didn't have those penalities they could be UB to all but the most aggressive, suicidal Orc/UD attackers their size.
Edit: I guess conquest would work for less-aggressive attacker builds trying to break a faery, but there are penalties to that as well - lower gains and higher losses- and the Faerie would still be UB to massacres from anyone but the most aggressive Orc/UD pure attackers his size.
I just don't like the idea of encouraging provinces that run UB strats. That's boring, and it ruins the game for attackers who have to sit on their thumbs and hope they don't get op'd. Being able to hit someone (with ops or attacks both) means you have to be able to get hit back just as easily!
Like the changes a lot, the better races can't turtle. Some fun races for warring kds, humans especially jump out as a good time. Human/Sage should be able to run a crazy wild a/t/m. Just wish honour was fixed some:p
Faerys can still be bounced, but imo would be better to give them a 7 point elite and +1 def spec that way they can kill dragons etc. Also I would reduce their elite value :P
Elves finally look fixed and should be a great time.
Dwarfs look to be one of the stronger races
Avians imo a little bit over nerfed. I mean you run 15% barracks on an avian and a dwarf, and the dwarf has QF vs the avians +20% faster and your looking at fairly similar attack times, I would consider giving avian +30% faster.
Orc looks over powered, do you really need 50% reduced losses from everything, 9 point elite, +20% gains, and elites with credits in an age when you get free credits when you win a war? I would remove the trains elites with credits bonus. Which I still think leaves them as one of the strongest races.
Halfling does suck. IMO they need a 6/6 elite to be viable, no pop bonus and 5/6 elite weak spell book. They can currently only really play a 100% thief...
Going to be a ton of anon hits or ambushes, funny that human got war spoils when all the other attacking races want it so bad :D
Oh wonderful, another round of Absalom orc kds. Core race wise Orc is noticeably superior but there's a reasonable case for elf or UD.
Dwarf needs higher BE bonus, and Avian needs the gains penalty removed or immunity to ambush/ws.
I guess you missed the part where faery lost 40% of their space efficiency? Space efficiency is the only reason faery works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Budlightyear
Faery was so broken this age. The nerf was required. I wouldn't mind them having +50% wpa/TPA if you nerf the elite. Halfling is so weak that the only real issue they have (runes being stolen) is not likely to happen because anyone running a halfer is to terrible to loginQuote:
Originally Posted by Palem
In all fairness. Faery wasn't OP. Faery with good Honor was OP.
What he said ^Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Spartacus
Also, Avians need a real thievery bonus IMO, not a pretend one.
all fearies i know have viscount min to DukeQuote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I don't understand why you want to remove MS from faeries? They are pretty one sided as it is ... why force them to run Mystics to get the MS, just weird.
Makes it so they can't be sage which is a pretty solid nerf. But I do agree I like them having all spells :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TRiV
thats a nerf Triv, forcing them to get that means that they wont be able to get other buffs somewhere else.
Race Changes
Avian
-35% Attack Time
+40% thievery damage
- 10% attack gains
No Access to Stables
Spell book: Town Watch, Vermin
Elite: 7/2, 700gc, 6.25NW
Avians will be weak attackers with only a 7/5 military, gains penalty, no stables, no space efficiency bonuses, which is fine - but at least let them be truly fast. Even this age they are still a little bit slow, needing barracks to hit below 8 hours in war. So let's improve the speed bonus slightly.
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Dwarf
+ 10% BE
+ 30% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
Free Building Construction
Can use credits to raze buildings
+ 50% Food consumption
Accelerated Construction not available
Spell book: Quick Feet, Fanaticism, Fools Gold, Clearsight
Elite: 7/3, 700gc, 6.25NW
The elite is priced too high in money and networth. They are still weak attackers with these prices, but at least not totally underpowered
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Elves
+50% WPA
+1 mana in war
+ 1 defence specialist strength
Spellbook: Pitfalls, Mages Fury, Amnesia, Nightmare
Elite: 6/4, 700gc, 6NW
Decent race like this. Gonna have to be played as a hybrid, cheap elite which can defend, no problem here.
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Faery
+30% damage on spells and ops
+30% WPA and TPA
-10% Population
Offensive Specialist Strength -2
Spellbook: All racial spells
Elite: 3/8, 1000gc, 7.5NW
If "all racial spells" means faery lost meteor showers, absolutely fine.
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Halflings
+50% TPA
+1 stealth
- 50% thief cost
-15% Birth Rate
Spellbook: Invisibility, Town Watch
Soldiers: 3/3
Elite: 5/6, 600gc, 5.75NW
A little bit weak without their population bonus. The boost to their soldiers is not very useful at 2/2 (unless this affects dragons but I guess not), at 3/3 this becomes a useful bonus without being unbalanced.
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Humans
+10% Population
+ 50% Thievery Damage (Sabotage Ops)
+ 50% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
Spellbook: Tree of Gold, Fountain of Knowledge, War Spoils
Elite: 5/5, 500gc, 5.5NW
I like this overhaul. Leave as it is, perhaps with 5nw/elite instead of 5.5
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Orcs
+20% gains
Can train elites with credits
-50% Combat Instant Spell Damage and Sabotage Damage
Spellbook: Bloodlust, Fanaticism, Aggression, Shadowlight, Reflect Magic
Elite: 9/2, 850gc, 7.25NW
Way overpowered compared to the other races, most of which were nerfed. No orc ever performs ops in any case, so the penalty there is useless. Since we're only supposed to change numbers, put the elite at 8/2 or at 9nw, but really, think of a better penalty. Like "50% of all ops against orcs auto-succeed without taking into account tpa/wpa/wt".
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The Undead
-50% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Successful land attacks convert specialists to elites
Spreads and is immune to The Plague
No food needed
- 25% science effectiveness
Spellbook: Greater Protection, Town Watch, Animate Dead, Chastity
Elite: 9/3, 1200gc, 8NW
Slightly overpowered, 1000gc/elite is trainable in elite pumps and once trained, those elites stay around. Make it harder, at 1200gc.
Personality Changes
The Sage
+ 40% Science effectiveness
-66% Losses on Learn Attacks
Immune to The Plague
Too weak, without a reduction in book costs, sages will need higher science effectiveness than suggested.
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The War Hero
+50% more bonuses from honor
-50% draft cost
-50% train time
Too weak to use in a normal KD because honour is so easily lost. All war hero KDs would work, but even there it is weak. The draft cost/train time bonuses are small. If you have to tweak numbers only here, make it "1 hour training time" to add some uniqueness here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus
Wait, did you just buffed Avians? on top on their actual buff? thats crazy. Dwarf elite change doesnt make them that viable. they still need an important buff. Halfers: 3/3 solds is weird. i dunno. Aggression should be brought back or double their housing effect, or aggression. Ud should be buffed, not nerfed. elites should be mroe affordable, if not, like ive said many times, make plague more virulant or give them a kill bonus instead of what i proposed from dwarves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Personally i'd rather they have space efficiency in their tpa/wpa than in their leets. running 100% safe from massacres with only a minor risk of conquest in the in early wars is just ridiculous. let them choose halfing level tpa & elf level wpa or unbreakable, dont give them both.Quote:
Originally Posted by goodz
Agreed! Offense needs to be balanced with defense... if the fact that so many Faeries are Viscount and above says anything at all it's that as they are right now they have both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
I think as they are with these changes they should be fine, though. They lost some space efficiency, hence they can make the choice if that translates to lost WPA/TPA or lost defense when they run their province.
I like the overall changes.
BUT...
I think Avians and Orcs need something extra.
I could be like:
Avians: +25% attack speed
Orcs: Massacre 5% thief/wizzies on all attacks.
It's usually considered bad game design to nerf something by limiting player choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by goodz
You could still play Faery/Sage and cast every spell other than MS. MS is not the only spell in the game, but it is very powerful and personally I see why it should only be given to dedicated Mages (who are playing Mystic at the exclusion of attacking/thief abilities.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tightpants
Last age player choice was limited by the fact that Faeries already had MS, so there was no reason for anyone to play a Faery/Mystic. On the contrary, this causes Faeries to actually make a choice, it doesn't take away choice.
I think you misread Orc. Spells and ops done by Orcs have -50% damage. Not those received by Orcs.Quote:
Originally Posted by goodz
'Tis a trade off - either better numbers of a sage, or MS. You still have a choice, and 'tis a more balanced choice than before IMO. This age faery mystic was a bad choice - just be sage, *much* stronger. With the update mystic is almost as good as before, but all non-mystics are weaker, which is exactly the goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tightpants
What is with everyone trying to buff dwarf? As far as I can see it is a perfectly good attacker already - solid top line power (about 91% of orc), strong econ buff (free build) and a decent spell-book (Qf = 0% rax is ok). Can double up as an FB spam A/m nicely.
In terms of estimated pure attacker "top line power" (how much military they can manage) we have the following:
Rankings____OPA_____DPA____NW/A___MPNW____%Max
Faery______55.23____29.74___134.6____0.63____74.88%
Elf_________81.04____43.64___166.07___0.75____89.06%
Dwarf______92.77____49.95___184.98___0.77____91.53%
Human_____86.94____46.81___173.33___0.77____91.54%
Avian______92.42____49.76___183.37___0.78____91.98%
Halfling_____83.75____45.1____164.38___0.78____92.98%
Undead_____99.21____53.42___188.27___0.81____96.18%
Orc_______103.94____55.97___189.7____0.84___100.00%
Overall, well balanced. Halfer looks a bit high, elf looks a bit low. Note the elf is using spec offense, and the human is also pure specs. So static defense on both... which is a big "hidden" malus.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus
http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...1#post15094686
We had 90% success rate with FB and that was when Orcs had wpa and tpa penalties
Lol, thats essentially why Ops strenght is removed from them. They already have strenght. Races is just a name. Those without penalty can do serious dommage, so i dont see why orcs cant do dammages without the penalty. That being said, Orcs with the right set of sci and Tds(it wont happen but possible) could do dammage with their actual penalty
Still makes them OP since it's a "do nothing" penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
edit: ethan how many times do i have to tell you those numbers are wrong
http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...1#post15094686Quote:
Originally Posted by Tightpants