Havoc vs AMA Round 2

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17-07-2013, 04:52
Elit

Sad part is none ask what AMA want :(
17-07-2013, 05:24
gergnub

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elit

Sad part is none ask what AMA want :(

Elit, what would you want? :)
17-07-2013, 05:39
Realest

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elit

Sad part is none ask what AMA want :(

Elit ftw
17-07-2013, 05:55
Smitty87

Best option for AMA is explore those 3 calves to 18k banks and then have cow advantage in their next war. Havoc will get dominated by BB 2 banks vs 1. Against AMA their 1 bank may remain ub vs the 3 calves and allow havoc to AW/NS the calves down.

My advice for Elit . Grow those calves to 18k each and then find a war, let BB pwn havoc
17-07-2013, 14:43
protector

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty87

My advice for Elit . Grow those calves to 18k each and then find a war, let BB pwn havoc

I suggest if you don't know what the costs are to explore at these sizes, you stop giving bad advice ;p
17-07-2013, 15:08
Palem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proteus

4) Accusing people of running is the dumbest thing ever, After all these years of playing I have seen every single kingdom pick whoever they want to fight based on their self interest...its not running
-its only running when you wave some small weak sauce kingdom to dodge a strong one, AMA is not a weak sauce kd.

Hmmm....
*into the rabbit hole*

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdorje

Waving us to dodge havoc is probably not going to work out in the long term, but should be fun for both kingdoms in the meantime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdorje

Here I was sitting all postwar waiting for such a request, and when it didn't come I assumed mom intended to dodge havoc by waving us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

It looks to me like Elit got notice from Havoc and decided that they didn't really want to fight them so decided to re-wave Sanc to try and dodge havoc. This seems to have been their plan all along to do if they got notice (hence why they wouldn't cf Sanc.) Elit seemed to think he had some deal with Havoc that would require they retract their notice if Elit waved another kingdom after getting notice, but their deal had no such clause. Chalk that one up to Elit's English deficiency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

1) Why not cf sanctuary if you didn't plan to use them to try and dodge havoc all along?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

My theory is that he didn't want to cf sanc because he wanted to wave them as a means to dodge havoc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

As for beastblood and Rage, yes Rage cf'd Beastblood after beating you in war and did not try and use you as a safety net to dodge Elit's notice. Elit on the other hand did not cf Sanc and wanted to use them to dodge Havoc's notice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proteus

Pew's notice to Sanc is legit if they did it before you and Sanc exchanged hits. The difference is Sanc is not trying to dodge their notice from Pew, you are the one trying to not be noticed by Havoc. It does not matter if Sanc robbed you prior to Havoc giving notice (if that was even the case). What is known by everyone is that they gave you notice BEFORE any hits were exchanged between you and Sanc so it is a valid notice. You just are afraid to lose so its natural/obvious that you want to get out of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brado

Hey there, new kid, every kd gets robbed these days, protect your gold. Chosing to wave our ally after we noticed you because they robbed you is pretty lol way to dodge them, imagine if every kd waved every uncf'd kd that robbed their 0tpa provs what the game would be like. We'd all really suck, just like you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

It looks like it was Elit's plan all along to wave Sanc to buy themselves time to get their provinces explored up and dodge Havoc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

I guess they figured if Elit was going to wave them to dodge Havoc, it's better to take the money before they use it all.

I agree there are two sides and I'm not trying to say my side is "right", but I also don't think havoc is any more "wrong" than pew pew and I think Elit played poorly trying to dodge havoc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixScorpion

To follow up actions like that with a hostile dodge he got what he wanted finally. If we truly wanted to "abuse our alliance" we wouldnt even be having this discussion, would be alot worse for the other side, and much easier than trying to be respectul and fair to our enemies.

Funny if we wanted to really powerplay you would not be in top to begin with. First you exploited a clear screwup by Bishop and the dev's on what could be expected in Fortified, then you attempt to vulture us, then you target-share one of our kingdoms, then you try to use a Hostile block with one of our allies to dodge a notice you were given even further in advance than you asked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

You tried to dodge Havoc when they noticed you because you can't win 1vs1. Classic Elit move.

I know you're mad about having to fight Havoc when you wanted to avoid them, but sometimes you can't always dodge kingdoms that want to wave you. For example, we didn't want you to wave us either right after our war, but at least we weren't nub enough to try waving some other kingdom to dodge you.

It's clear you wouldn't cf sanc because you thought that was your ticket to dodge havoc.

You probably could have even been in a stronger position than them had you not been so greedy with wanting to use your pool and try and dodge them. Instead you decided in advance you wouldn't "accept" their notice and instead of getting ready for them you'd use your explore pool and use Sanc as an excuse to not fight Havoc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixScorpion

If I was Havoc and you dodged me waving an ally after I gave you clear notice, I would have waved you straight away after you waved Sanctuary in an attempt to twist the notice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Trying to dodge notices by waving another weaker kingdom is just not smart since stuff like this can happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

No, it has not in any way been "proven false" that Elit was trying to use Sanc to dodge notice with Havoc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Instead his plan was always to use sanc as an excuse to dodge Havoc's notice and use their pool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixScorpion

If Elit was so sure he would stomp Havoc, or even Rage for that matter, why did he wave a KD for stealing that he cant war to dodge the notice of one until he could farm alot more acres and explore up and ask for an EOA CF from other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Do you think it was also unfair to havoc for Elit to try and dodge their notice when they told him in advance to plan for their notice once he was out of post war?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

As i've stated, Rage has had many opportunities to do similar to Elit to try and avoid notices/waves but I've always been against it. And as you know, yes Rage has gotten doubled several times in somewhat recent ages and never was it from us trying to dodge a hostile. They were basically just pure blatent doubles.

I'm not saying this was "fair", it wasn't. I'm just saying that by Elit trying to dodge the hostile the situation automatically either was not going to end up fair for him or not fair for Havoc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

However sanc also expected and nearly certainly correctly, that Elit was going to wave them regardless to dodge Havoc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

I also said that if that kingdom refused to cf, then you'd have been put in a situation where you could not avoid the 2v1 and it wouldn't have been you trying to dodge Havoc.

...I didn't see Proteus defending AMA and telling ASF+jorje+PS+brado+himself that they weren't trying to dodge havoc lol
17-07-2013, 15:40
Spahrep

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palem

Hmmm....
*into the rabbit hole*

...I didn't see Proteus defending AMA and telling ASF+jorje+PS+brado+himself that they weren't trying to dodge havoc lol

Or instead of making a chronicle of recent utopia history, you could throw around some fireballs :P
17-07-2013, 16:10
Cello

Palem is my new hero!
17-07-2013, 17:06
october

Thanks Palem.

What we have here is actions and words. Actions from last age and words from this age on how things work. Guess what, actions speak louder than words.
17-07-2013, 18:03
Godly

I thought the double on Elit last round was bad and won't be defending it here. The toughest thing about playing in an Absalom kingdom is having to deal with lots of poor decisions made by past kingdoms. I think everyone that knows me knows that I would not let anything Absalomish slide while I'm playing there. If I'm overruled, I'll leave. It's as simple as that.

Nonetheless, it's like comparing red apples and green apples. They're kinda similar but taste different:

Why? We have a reset clause. The reset clause was put into place specifically to allow the kingdom who gets noticed a chance for counter options. Why else would you put a reset clause in place? For this specific reason... flogger I'm sure wanted to make sure that we wouldn't doubleteam him if he wanted to wave someone else after a notice due to some stupid precedents set last round or that we wouldn't vulture him after a grueling war. In this case, it seems like we will be benefiting from his request. Nonetheless, everything we are planning to do is 100% legal.

Hope this helps!
17-07-2013, 19:05
flogger

The triggerring of the reset is when you go to war with the kingdom you are hostling with. The original purpose of the reset clause was due to the facts that 1) kingdoms generally like having a break after warring, and not have to immediately gear up during EoW for another fight and 2) 96h isn't quite enough time to repump but 6 days is. The clause was never intended to be a dodge tool. Every time we've used it has been more or less when we're surrounded by abs, and generally know which order we are fighting in. Its become more a dodge tool due to the ridiculous new pool rules which favors the kingdom not fighting too drastically.

Its not reset due to merely hostling, in large part because the definition of a hostile seems to change every age, and you avoid having to argue whether your epic bounce battle vs Princess Xena constitutes a hostile.

It also doesn't reset to perpetuity, thus ya can't keep dodging forever.
17-07-2013, 20:51
Zauper

Quote:

Originally Posted by flogger

The triggerring of the reset is when you go to war with the kingdom you are hostling with. The original purpose of the reset clause was due to the facts that 1) kingdoms generally like having a break after warring, and not have to immediately gear up during EoW for another fight and 2) 96h isn't quite enough time to repump but 6 days is. The clause was never intended to be a dodge tool. Every time we've used it has been more or less when we're surrounded by abs, and generally know which order we are fighting in. Its become more a dodge tool due to the ridiculous new pool rules which favors the kingdom not fighting too drastically.

Its not reset due to merely hostling, in large part because the definition of a hostile seems to change every age, and you avoid having to argue whether your epic bounce battle vs Princess Xena constitutes a hostile.

It also doesn't reset to perpetuity, thus ya can't keep dodging forever.

Quote:

zauper: what's a reset clause?
flogger: meaning if you and AMA are about to square off, I can't give you notice 1 hour before you're about to fight to get around hostile/notice
zauper: aha
flogger: and gives the OOW kd more time to regroup
zauper: no 'notice into notice with a real kingdom'
:)
functionally
flogger: yes, I didn't think that was necessary but then proteus's first few rage years were litterred with those ;p

Your words, not mine. Nothing in there about the reset occurring when war is declared, merely that it means you can't give us notice before we're about to fight AMA to get around no notice into hostile.

I'm pretty sure you're aware that AMA and us are about to square off. In fact, you explicitly say fight rather than war. When I was talking to you the other day, it seemed that fight included oow and war.
17-07-2013, 21:00
Realest

so much fear, but dont forget the Havoc Provision trumps any gentleman's agreement.
17-07-2013, 21:04
Godly

Anyone with a brain understands that we left acres on the table vs AMA that we want to collect. It doesn't matter even if we didn't have any CFs expiring -- we would have still gone right after them again. If AMA wants to offer us some land for a CF deal and then we go fight flogger, we will be willing to negotiate. But I'm not leaving that land on the table no matter how many people notice me to save AMA.

This entire story is blown up way too much because Elit wants to double us. I say whatever. If that's how you want to win, fine. If flogger wants to take this back to age 2 rules where he waves into an active hostile, that's cool. Neither of us are probably not going to win this round anyways and it will tarnish his squeaky clean rep. I refuse to see it happening due to knowing the guy for many years.

Round 1 was a very close fight and was an exciting war for many people looking in. My proposal to flogger is to back off and let AMA and Havoc have round 2. It's not like sitting back out of the fray, doubling another cow and pumping gold and science is a bad thing as you mentioned above.
17-07-2013, 23:21
protector

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zauper

Your words, not mine. Nothing in there about the reset occurring when war is declared, merely that it means you can't give us notice before we're about to fight AMA to get around no notice into hostile.

I'm pretty sure you're aware that AMA and us are about to square off. In fact, you explicitly say fight rather than war. When I was talking to you the other day, it seemed that fight included oow and war.

Afaik "oow" means "out of war".
17-07-2013, 23:26
Zauper

Quote:

Originally Posted by prot

Afaik "oow" means "out of war".

Yes...
Flogger says 'only war' in his post, but in our conversation about what a reset clause means at the start of the age says 'fight'.

Again; his words. So we're in agreement that fight includes non-war activity, which means based on what flogger said war is not necessary for the reset clause to kick in.
18-07-2013, 00:01
Jobolob

You better get a lawyer son, a real good one.

Also you dont get too decide if someone is in agreement with you, thats not a conclusion you can make. Soz.
18-07-2013, 00:05
flogger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zauper

Your words, not mine. Nothing in there about the reset occurring when war is declared, merely that it means you can't give us notice before we're about to fight AMA to get around no notice into hostile.

I'm pretty sure you're aware that AMA and us are about to square off. In fact, you explicitly say fight rather than war. When I was talking to you the other day, it seemed that fight included oow and war.

Yeah, so I'm saying if you go to war, I don't get to vulture ya immediately after war and instead have to re-serve notice after war. At this point the definition of a reset clause is fairly well established amongst the abs circles, as we've been doing em for 4-5 ages.
18-07-2013, 00:11
tetley

So just curious here ... what happens if Havoc waves but AMA just eats it? Is it an "active hostile" if hits are uni-directional? What if no button is pushed at the time BB's notice expires? BB can wave and it be clean?
18-07-2013, 00:21
flogger

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetley

So just curious here ... what happens if Havoc waves but AMA just eats it? Is it an "active hostile" if hits are uni-directional? What if no button is pushed at the time BB's notice expires? BB can wave and it be clean?

Everyone knows what an active hostile is or isn't.
18-07-2013, 00:23
Realest

I recommend Syntico for a good lawyer.
18-07-2013, 01:01
Proteus

Quote:

Originally Posted by flogger

The triggerring of the reset is when you go to war with the kingdom you are hostling with. The original purpose of the reset clause was due to the facts that 1) kingdoms generally like having a break after warring, and not have to immediately gear up during EoW for another fight and 2) 96h isn't quite enough time to repump but 6 days is. The clause was never intended to be a dodge tool. Every time we've used it has been more or less when we're surrounded by abs, and generally know which order we are fighting in. Its become more a dodge tool due to the ridiculous new pool rules which favors the kingdom not fighting too drastically.

Its not reset due to merely hostling, in large part because the definition of a hostile seems to change every age, and you avoid having to argue whether your epic bounce battle vs Princess Xena constitutes a hostile.

It also doesn't reset to perpetuity, thus ya can't keep dodging forever.

I've made those deals with you in the past where hostile resets notice. My understanding of those deals was that if you get hostile after notice is served, notice is retracted. Obviously you can't just give hostile to some kd way oor but if its a legit fight with both sides exchanging hits, notice is reset. If you tried to pull some stunt to us in the past with this deal where we fight some kd oow for 3 days where it doesn't go to war but you don't retract notice on grounds it doesn't go to war, that wouldn't fly.

Also do you care to comment about vulturing is your pet peeve and how you would NEVER do it to anyone and would wait like a week after war to notice. Are you planning on extending this generosity this age or does that go out the window with a tight crown race?
18-07-2013, 01:03
tetley

Quote:

Originally Posted by flogger

Everyone knows what an active hostile is or isn't.

I think you give people too much credit flogger :P
18-07-2013, 01:39
Realest

flogger is a good ally, second best to CGG.
18-07-2013, 01:41
Elit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zauper

I'm pretty sure you're aware that AMA and us are about to square off. In fact, you explicitly say fight rather than war. When I was talking to you the other day, it seemed that fight included oow and war.

Every one know BB and Havoc is going to war. Your reason for reject my cf offer is because BB didn't gave you CF extend. So its clear dodge. There wont be second war atm Havoc and AMA and you know it.
18-07-2013, 01:47
Palem

Proteus ignored my post :(
18-07-2013, 02:43
Proteus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palem

Proteus ignored my post :(

Elit didnt want to cf sanc after war last age to keep his options open and have possibility of using sanc hostile to double up his halfers and give them enough time to pump while keeping havoc at bay. This is strategic on his part but it didnt work.

I dont want to rehash old arguments over and over but i am allowed to hold my position that i did not receive fair play at a certain point in time and dont really feel sorry for someone who gets ****played when it happened to me. I dont care what others arguments are im going to maintain my position and its not going to change. Case in point is elit didnt give a **** when debauchery dealbroke rage this age and didnt even feel sorry either
18-07-2013, 02:46
tetley

Proteus shouldn't you feel even worse for people who get ****played because you know what it feels like?
18-07-2013, 03:16
Elit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proteus

Elit didnt want to cf sanc after war last age to keep his options open and have possibility of using sanc hostile to double up his halfers and give them enough time to pump while keeping havoc at bay. This is strategic on his part but it didnt work.

Its complete lie. I was ready to CF Sanctuary after our war last age moment they propose it. Problem is Sanctuary never propose it and i didn't expect they will pul this 2vs1 ****s. OOW we was in full pump mod preparing for incoming notice and never planed to run from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proteus

Case in point is elit didnt give a **** when debauchery dealbroke rage this age and didnt even feel sorry either

Its result from you and ASF defend last age double hostile against AMA with reason: because we deserve it. Its why you get same attitude from me this age.
18-07-2013, 03:24
siewpau

Last Age Headline: AMA Dodges Incoming Havoc - AMA avoiding act creates double hostile

This Age Headline: Havoc Tactical Brilliance - Havoc declared maneuver for AMA again nullifies BB threat
18-07-2013, 04:42
goodz

to be fair elit/ama farmed / hit into our hostiles / target shared us in forums.

These were motives.

Also after elit waved sanc i told him I would reset timer if him and sanc agreed to CF but the only terms he would agree to CF were something like 1 additional week of cf and 30k acres. Otherwise he demanded I leave him alone indefinably until hostile was done.

I asked sanc to stop hits/ops and just eat a wave and then we would wave 12 hours later when elits armies were mostly home.

Elit really could have done any diplomacy to get timer reset but he refused to CF sanc and I choose to wave him rather then let him double a few provinces oow and have an extra week to prep (think he doubled 2 from 7k to 14k then waved sanc)

Anywho no idea of current situation but AMA is dirty scrubs, flogger seems fairly respectful. If he deems its fair to double hostile due to whatever teh situation is that is his choice. I'm sure people will complain either way. If AMA wants to give Havoc the free wave or whatever sanc did and then let flogger take all le acres and call it justice good for them!

SWEA and x:x both appear to be the lamers this age. The top is ghetto without abs :p Everyone seems dirty!
18-07-2013, 05:07
Elit

goodz, you mess irc talk and forum posts. There is never 30k acres propose when we talked in irc. You offered us reset if we cf but this don't help us. Get 48h notice after Sanctuary FB half kd and FG all gold+send us dragon. How you expect from us to war you after 48h when you spend 7 weeks for pump from your last war? Its clear this deal cant work for us and its not our fault Dorje started all mess.
We was in pure per-notice mod preparing for you and Sanctuary decide to mess our prepare and not let us have fair 1vs1 fight. Only solution was wave them and get second war.

You don't have any excuse for your double hostile. I spend 6 week perfect and CLEAN play for get my age win and this was killed from few idiots. I will target any kd you join in future and will pay back in most dirty way for what you did.

p.s.
Well i proposed 2-3 week later 30-40k land and WW for clean our relations but you refuse it :P
18-07-2013, 05:09
jamin

Last age the top was dirty with abs, this age they're dirty without abs (except for havoc), I prefer it that way any day of the week.
18-07-2013, 06:14
protector

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zauper

Yes...
Flogger says 'only war' in his post, but in our conversation about what a reset clause means at the start of the age says 'fight'.

Again; his words. So we're in agreement that fight includes non-war activity, which means based on what flogger said war is not necessary for the reset clause to kick in.

The part you posted says "flogger: and gives the OOW kd more time to regroup"
18-07-2013, 08:10
Topsy

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamin

Last age the top was dirty with abs, this age they're dirty without abs (except for havoc), I prefer it that way any day of the week.

So Debauchery is ok with allies gb'ing into their war for crown acres? I honestly don't see how this isn't the biggest topic of the age. A kd is literally on the verge of crowning by hitting for acres into a war with their ally on the other side. The precedent that AMA/SWEA/PewPew/BB is setting is completely outrageous.
18-07-2013, 08:19
Elit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topsy

So Debauchery is ok with allies gb'ing into their war for crown acres? I honestly don't see how this isn't the biggest topic of the age. A kd is literally on the verge of crowning by hitting for acres into a war with their ally on the other side. The precedent that AMA/SWEA/PewPew/BB is setting is completely outrageous.

AMA have his standard cfs with SWEA and Debauchery. I don't like how SWEA waved and gained free acres from Debauchery OOW. Problems is i don't know all story. Its why i don't comment it.
18-07-2013, 09:42
John Snowstorm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topsy

So Debauchery is ok with allies gb'ing into their war for crown acres? I honestly don't see how this isn't the biggest topic of the age. A kd is literally on the verge of crowning by hitting for acres into a war with their ally on the other side. The precedent that AMA/SWEA/PewPew/BB is setting is completely outrageous.

You're pretending that that's never happened before, you're also pretending that all of those kds are allied like abs is, you're also pretending everyone is happy about it. You're in imagination land.

gooby pls.
18-07-2013, 14:51
Topsy

I'm not sure if this has happened before, certainly I haven't seen someone get away with it so easily. Are you trying to say since it's happened before there is already precedent so we should already have been doing this every age? I do know that you guys have openly stated that you would dealbreak and gb other kd's this age, and yet have not said anything more than "they had it coming" in most threads/channels. It's hard to openly say "as a group we gb," have eoacf's generated pre-age between 2/3 of your alliance members and SWEA, say very little publicly or in-game about this, and then expect noone to think anything of it. I'm certain none of you wish that they did it, or had anything to do with the planning of it, but by doing nothing(or even saying anything) about it you condone their actions.
18-07-2013, 15:10
goodz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elit

goodz, you mess irc talk and forum posts. There is never 30k acres propose when we talked in irc. You offered us reset if we cf but this don't help us. Get 48h notice after Sanctuary FB half kd and FG all gold+send us dragon. How you expect from us to war you after 48h when you spend 7 weeks for pump from your last war? Its clear this deal cant work for us and its not our fault Dorje started all mess.
We was in pure per-notice mod preparing for you and Sanctuary decide to mess our prepare and not let us have fair 1vs1 fight. Only solution was wave them and get second war.

You don't have any excuse for your double hostile. I spend 6 week perfect and CLEAN play for get my age win and this was killed from few idiots. I will target any kd you join in future and will pay back in most dirty way for what you did.

p.s.
Well i proposed 2-3 week later 30-40k land and WW for clean our relations but you refuse it :P

It might have been 20k. On IRC you said you would CF sanc for a 1 week additional CF with us and x number of acres. The X was a very large number.
18-07-2013, 15:29
Topsy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elit

AMA have his standard cfs with SWEA and Debauchery. I don't like how SWEA waved and gained free acres from Debauchery OOW. Problems is i don't know all story. Its why i don't comment it.

That seems fair. I think we should really understand what happened here though while we're in cf land because it looks really bad at face value. GB'ing 4:15 just because they refused to war would have been bad enough, but doing it with TM's for a huge lead in the crown race should really not be allowed or condoned by anyone interested in playing this game for growth.

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