http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/43712582.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by flogger
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http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/43712582.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by flogger
At least the murderer didn't cheat in an online game... o_OQuote:
Originally Posted by faegan
You need to get a clue before you speak:Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
[20:59] <@Memster> you know what Zauper... I hate you
[20:59] <@Memster> "The funny part was that cr/havoc came up with strategy and RBLfake rage copied it blindly, kinda sad when you don't come up with your own strategies, copy a lame one, and get owned." -- Proteus
[20:59] <@Memster> :(
[20:59] <@Memster> he thinks you're smart, and we dumb
[21:00] <&maximouse> lol
[21:03] <&zauper> lol
[21:03] <@Memster> If he is going to congratulate a plan
[21:03] <@Memster> At least congratulate the person (kd) that is deserved!
I'm not actually in his kingdom. I run a different kingdom. I've already spoken privately to you, but there is an observation that seems necessary:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Last age, what was going on was kds would get a province of theirs heavy chained to point where it had no military and thus couldn't take or hold onto any land or do any damage to the enemy kd. Provs which were, for all intents and purposes, out of the war. The reset in that case took a province from being completely out of the war to being able to come back into the fight with huge military, without the need to even receive aid.
You did not consider that to be abuse. That was tantamount to buying warwins, and I said as much and made a suggestion thread, and you implemented a solution I suggested.
Havoc aiding out from two provs and then paying to reset them (and in a war, no less so the oop was 72 hours and not 24) is considerably less swingy to a conflict. It's nowhere near the amount of added military and resources as what was going on last age.
So you took an objectively worse case and said it wasn't abuse, even though it amounted to buying warwins so long as a kd was willing to pay $2.40 per chained prov they wanted to buy back into the war with.
But a far smaller usage caused you to change your position completely about whether it was abuse or not.
The only meaningful difference I can see is that Havoc plays in the top and the smaller kd who was abusing last age was way down the charts.
--------------------------
That said, my kingdom will always follow the rules, and even though I believe that this is an ex post facto application, which real world legal systems recognize as wrong, we still just dropped nearly $100 into the game to reset our kd and be on the right side of the rule change that you made.
I would suggest in the future that people not be punished ex post facto simply because if you (as the sole arbiter of what is right/wrong) are on the record that something is acceptable, and then change your mind, people should not be retroactively punished for doing it before you changed your mind about whether it was abuse or not. The whole idea of ex post facto laws are actually a huge part of what sparked the American Revolution nearly 250 years ago.
And before anyone trolls; yes, I am aware that this is a game and not the real world, but the analogy is useful and fits the situation.
---------------------------------------------
@Proteus - LOL. It's really amusing when you say something so incredibly wrong and everyone knows it but you. Also ... pay KuHaN his money. You can't be prestigious if you don't pay your bets.
I am stunned..... that people want to pretend they did not have any idea that if this did not cross the line, it at least was ON IT. Really? No one had that little quiet voice in them that said...."maybe this is not right...." No one?
I guess I will continue to be surprised by people who I would not have expected to be surprised by in this way....
this makes me very sad.
lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololo lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololo lololol
wait... people pay money to reset to get a marginal aid advantage early age? bahahahahahahahahahahahaha... bwahahahahahahahahahhahahaaahahhhhaaa
oh **** my keyboard is sticky
sweet jesus.
I too am stunned. Stunned that I see a thread of a kingdom resetting provs to gain an adv in war is met with "deal with it" from Bishop and "deal with it, noob" from others. No huge outcry saying that it is wrong other than Anri and the kingdom.
Bishop goes on the record saying it's ok to reset provs under any circumstance. NOW all of a sudden everyone comes out of the woodwork to say it's messed up when the alleged abuse (that really wasn't an abuse last round according to Bishop) was fixed and we're already punished by having to wait 5 days to have those provs be useful.
The next time Bishop tells you that something isn't an abuse, get a contract written up.
"Its not a rule violation to respawn." -Bishop / Age 60
The bandwagon is strong in this case
Godly,
I think the quote you are using is one line in the middle of a large discussion. Stop trying to use it like it is a Supreme Court Holding. It is at best dicta.
What you guys were doing should have at least felt slimy. There are all sorts of people who do transactions for a living. Almost any of them that you talk to that have done them for a long time tell you that you need to have a "spidey sense" of things that the regulators will get upset about. If your spidey sense was not going off here, then I think you just learned something about how many view the game and how you view it. Don't get me wrong, I understand being at odds with most of utopia on certain points.
I just think in this case, someone's spidey sense should have tingled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Love you and all Pro-Pro, but you are so wrong... but I guess we should be used to that.
Too bad half of the genius isn't there anymore.Quote:
<@Memster> At least congratulate the person (kd) that is deserved!
Utopia is all about optimizing your strat while staying within the rules. I can only play within the rules of the admin, right?
"What do we do when someone resets their prov...?"
"Get someone else to razekill them for crappy tactics." -Bishop
"Can you help us?"
"Its not a rule violation to respawn." -Bishop
Good thing you aren't being punished for respawning. You are being punished for using a mechanic (respawn) in an attempt to undermine the amount of initial resources all provinces (and thus full kingdoms) get at the beginning of the age. You are abusing an otherwise legitimate mechanic. The 24 hour timer due to aid was clearly not intended to give a free pass in this scenario, but as a buffer so people couldn't pull off similar BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
We are being punished for respawning. Had we sent all the aid out and not respawned, there'd be no action.
"Its not a rule violation to respawn." -Bishop
So in war:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZodZilla
1) Kill dragon when chained
2) Aid gc/soldiers out
3) Reset
4) Come out with more def/off than the enemies chained provinces 24 hours later
Is the above "abuse"?
why do people still think warring on 400 acres is a good idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
This^
This is where it becomes a problem. It was fine, as long as prov's didn't reset.
It proves once and for all who is better? All the everyone starts at 400 acres **** is decided here and now!Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
It decides who is more able to fight a war of pure activity and no thinking, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by crease
I think it is silly as all hell that kingdoms forgot how to fight early wars and forgot how to plan growth strats all of the sudden.
I'm not a whorer and didn't spend time thinking about every angle, but I would think 25 active and functional provinces are better than 23 slightly-more-functional provinces and 2 reset provinces, assuming no war or hostile.
*eyes roll*Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
Since pyros was on like 4k def kingdomwide, I don't think Havoc knew it was them or expected them to press war. I also think Havoc obviously didn't think they were abusing becuase they reset those provs in war, accepting the 72 hour protection instead of 24 hour (which came from my suggestion to fix resetting in war).Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
For RBL, our strategy was predicted on having 4x 1600a provs 48 hours oop, and someone waved us at just the right time to stop it. It only became problematic for us because of the sudden change in stance on resetting provinces, and rather than be viewed as cheaters, we just reset our whole kd (at our cost) and we'll play from there.
I think the whole "cheater cheater" stuff is quite a bit overblown in this thread. CR acted within what were the defined rules at the time. They were punished ex post facto, which I disagree with but I'm not the one who decides the rules nor am I the one who decides whether they should be enforced ex post facto or not. Last age they let a much larger abuse go without fixing it or actioning it at all, so I find it a little odd that 2 provs aiding for a slight military advantage for several other provs was met with such a harsh response, especially given that rationally it is much more abusive to do what was being discussed in the thread last age where Bishop said resetting was not abuse.
So ... what say you Elit? .. is this a 150 page topic?
You were being punished for creating resources. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
Respawning is just a sideeffect of creating the resources.
If one gave u a button "create gold, military, acres" and told you not to press it, would you still have done it ?
Lurking, it's not free. It comes at a cost.
In our ideal scenario, we gain resources per 24 hrs lost on a prov. It's a good tradeoff that I think is worth it.
After they changed the rules without informing us, we gain resources per 5 days lost on a prov. Pretty much garbage deal. We didn't even complain. We just took it as "**** happens."
That should be punishment enough. We had more disadvantage going into fight with Pyro than advantage. I would have gladly traded those resources for having 2 more provs. This wasn't enough for Pyro to win because they're just really bad at utopia so they had to file a complaint.
Now that we post quotes from Bishop claiming that resetting is not a violation of the rules, he just disappears and pleads the fifth and says things like "those two scenarios are completely different." lol. Yes. In one scenario the guy reset and you said there is no violation for resetting. In this scenario we reset.. oh wait.
The rest of you fools are just bandwagoning like you know anything about utopia and/or are biased. Anyone with a brain can understand that 5 days delay for starting a prov is sufficient deterrent for resetting in protection. There isn't any additional action required. They made the change full well knowing that whoever tried would be monumentally screwed. Now they want to kick dirt on us while we're down.
If we're going to start actioning things under the "spirit of the rules" clause, and the only foundation for actioning things are what Bishop says are actionable, shouldn't the things that Bishop says to be not actionable be.. not actionable?
"Its not a rule violation to respawn." -Bishop 2014
Like i said. Another sad day for utopia. Soon comes a baby, 5 ages old named cJ to give his expertise with underlined and bolded text. Someone like Bishop might listen and sanction another kd.
Stupidly amazing
gg utopia
So why last age when that province in war was abusing aiding resources out before resetting, did that kingdom not receive similar punishments as those dealt out here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurking Ghost
Furthermore, if I release all of my military now and aid it to someone else, then I wait the perfectly legal period of time of 24 hrs to reset, will I be actioned? Or is this only actionable because the aid was done 1 hour OOP? What happens if I just decide.. hey.. I don't want to play X race anymore? Actioning this type of stuff is so dangerous because it just opens up the flood gates of "is this actionable?" questions.
OR should we just say? Hey .. the guy has to wait 24 hrs to reset, then another 72 hrs in protection. I think that's sufficient deterrent enough to cause people to not try to abuse it.
OMFG would we be geniuses or what!?
You never know. It might be 23h one age instead of 24h. Bishop is a nice guy but should never been allowed to play god with this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
I agree that actioning resets is petty bs, and that the problem should be solved by reasonable mechanic changes instead of aribtrary patches. Still doesn't change that it is a rather inane strategy in the first place.
noobium, it's a tradeoff. I think it's worth the 8k soldiers for 24 hrs of losing a prov. They made the correct code change to prevent this from happening in the future. Do you honestly think after people found out about the penalties (not the Bishoping but the aid/reset cooldown) that people would do it now that it's 5 days? Actioning this was such a huge overstep of boundaries and was completely unnecessary.
Give ya ass a rest mate!Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
couldnt be bothered to read all the stuff in this thread, but I can guess roughly what's going on in this thread.
CR is probably being butthurt at Pyro for about 6-7 provinces being released of some troops, and is laughing at Pyro for still being behind in war?
First, do you really blame Pyro & several other kingdoms for reporting a possible mechanic abuse? It's simple, if you see there's a possible bug abuse/mechanic abuse/cheating/whatever ****, and you want to see if it's legit or not. You send a mail to support. That's what we did. Why be butthurt about it?
I find it really ?? that CR comes and flame Pyro for this? It's like the whole of CR puts the blame of them being actioned on us, that's really wtf? Grow up. Every single logs out there by a CR person blames Pyros for this. I dont care if we win or lose this war, but we are fighting against people who jumps the QQ bandwagon and blames someone else when they got punished for a mechanic abuse. It is the devs that decided to act on the mechanic abuse.
Second, whatever was it that was released, it was on about 6-7 provinces in total.. 5 of which that we had already chained on the first unique.. and they were released towards the middle-late of our 2nd unique and has we couldnt do much about it. The other 2 provinces were healthy, but once again with war hero training times and being released towards middle-late of our 2nd unique, there's already nothing much we can do about it.
There was +1.5mil tb on both provinces that feed out, making it about +3mil tb. In addition, there's still intra-kd stealing+the advantage from already being fed and using it on another kingdom from ~34hrs. And with TOG, it is soldiers that are scarce early age, not TOG.
The troops were being released as I mentioned halfway through our 2nd unique in war, and I estimated about ~25k worth of networth being released. That's about 6+k troops (assuming 4gc/spec). This is equivalent to about 3mil tb. Again, I havent read this thread (was told to post on it when I wake up), but I am pretty sure the loss is being exaggerated.
Anyway, it's been a good war thus far.
-------------------
Anyway, Pyros location got leaked early this age and we were WTF when CR blatantly knew it was in the war forums. IRC ABSNet has been a good place for us the past 1age+, but we will be moving out of this server shortly after the war is over(prolly some time to come). I have been told that the person who is admin of IRC ABSNet is currently in CR, and has been caught for spying on logs ages ago. I have also checked that admins are able to see logs in private channels on IRC.
Thanks (to Stinger and ABSNet admin/hosts) for hosting us the past 1age+.
It seems strange that CR went to warspoil like 2-3hits at oop, but after that left all troops home and wave Pyro 6hours later when islands open up. If you intend to use provinces to feed, why do this?
They knew the defenses that we were left at home and knew it was optimal to wait and wave us. Maximouse of CR claims that he knew all his threats 24hours of islands opening from oop, and he knew the personalities+racial setup for all the 25 man kingdoms near him. He also mentioned that he knew all these in freeze mode. I wonder, the charts are not up in freeze mode, how else would you know the setup of each kingdom.
CR knew we went with whoring strat at oop and were on low rtpa. They had already adjusted their rtpa and building strat straight from the get go.
Again, it will be difficult to prove any of the above, but I will choose to believe what several people have told me on IRC about ABSNet itself.
-----
Also, it's so strange that at freeze mode, every single province of my kingdom received the following message. It was to all provinces, and not just (M) or (S). Perhaps, this person was a multi from some kingdom trying to find out setup/personalities.
Game Date Pre Age
Real Date Fri, 21 Mar at 02:16 GMT+00:00
Sender Banana the Sorcerer of XX (X:XX)
Recipient Knight Dr Cancer the Sorcerer of XX (X:XX)
Subject Hi
Hi, any slot for me?
-cJ
lol
ummm. Life imprisonment is meant to be a deterrent to murder. Does that mean because there is life imprisonment that murder is balanced?
OK, OK, that example is a bit ridiculous. But then, so is your argument.
WTF are you trying to argue here? Because there was a hard coded punishment to deter abuse so that the admin would not have to monitor as much, it is unfair that when the deterrent fails that he has to step in and more brutally enforce the spirit of the game?
Your argument is, that if you decide the deterrent is sufficiently outweighed in your own calculus that you are willing to accept the deterrence conditions (e.g. the deterrent is ineffective) that therefore, your action is actually, in reality, sanction and a balanced action that is and was meant to be a part of the game.
So, if I somehow use one of my kingdom's provinces to hack the game for the benefit of my kingdom, knowing that account deletion and an IP ban are appropriate sanctions but I determine the gain is wroth the price, it is over the top if the admins take further actions against the KD since the threat of deletion and IP ban did not work.
You made a move that you thought was close enough to the line to get away with even though you knew it stank. You are upset that you were wrong, but you admit you took a calculated risk.
You took a calculated risk..... and lost.
move on, nothing more to see here.
So you are still butthurt and blames Pyro for you guys being actioned? instead of looking at yourselves and knowing there was a possibility of being actioned and still did it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
GROW UP
It is so hilarious almost every single CR member blames Pyro for being actioned. I dont care if we win or lose this war, but what this incident shows that you guys are definitely not gracious winners (if you win), and a whole bunch of you looks for excuses and blames elsewhere instead of looking at yourself.
I dont care if you are the 'most decorated' player of all time and I am a lowly noob. I dont give a ****. Nesta & Me built this kingdom with a core that is much weaker than the rest (but all 25 of us take pride in working together). So laugh all you want about us being noobs, again. you are nothing.
The deterrent is put into place to make the action not profitable. There wasn't any cheating or serious violation here. It was a strategy that they deemed to be too good to let happy, so they balanced it by making it not profitable. That should be the end of the story. Going into someone's account and removing stuff is not ok.
No I'm laughing at this:
Also, it's so strange that at freeze mode, every single province of my kingdom received the following message. It was to all provinces, and not just (M) or (S). Perhaps, this person was a multi from some kingdom trying to find out setup/personalities.
Game Date Pre Age
Real Date Fri, 21 Mar at 02:16 GMT+00:00
Sender Banana the Sorcerer of XX (X:XX)
Recipient Knight Dr Cancer the Sorcerer of XX (X:XX)
Subject Hi
Hi, any slot for me?
so he should have just deleted the aided provinces and banned the aider provinces.......
Please take note Bishop, it is the invasion of "privacy" that is at issue. Had you "mehuled" them, this would probably be less drama ridden.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by theone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
Maybe you should lie better
These 2 sots were taken 11hours after OOP, there were waiting to be resetted
he peggers in tow(x:xx) - SOT - Age: 1hrs 8min 34sec - Thieves Sent/Accuracy: 100% - Submitter: Noir
The Province of the peggers in tow (x:xx)
[ StingerNET Formatter v1.2 ]
Server: World of Legends (Age 61)
Utopian Date: February 11, YR0
RL Date: March 23, 2014 (04:04:55 GMT)
Origin: Unformatted (1st hand)
Ruler Name: The Conniving the one who knocks Swordsmen 0 Land 410 Archers 1 Peasants 5
Personality & Race: The Tactician, Human
Land: 410 Acres
Money: 182,469gc
Food: 28,424 bushels
Runes: 417 runes
Population: 5,050 citizens (12.32 per Acre)
Peasants: 5,049 (95% Building Efficiency)
Trade Balance: 1,479,039gc
Accuracy: 100%
Military Eff. with Stance: 100% off. / 100% def.
Soldiers: 0 (0% estimated draft rate)
Swordsmen: 0 (0 offense)
Archers: 1 (4 defense)
Knights: 0 (0 offense / 0 defense )
War-Horses: 0 (up to 0 additional offense)
Prisoners: 0
Total Modified Offense: 0 (0 per Acre)
Total Modified Defense: 4 (0.01 per Acre)
Estimated Thieves Number: 0 (0 per Acre)
Estimated Wizards Number: 0 (0 per Acre)
** Current Effects: **
- None
** Networth Table: **
Total Networth: 11,577gc (28.24 per Acre)
And out of the beer hall(x:xx) - SOT - Age: 1hrs 6min 14sec - Thieves Sent/Accuracy: 100% - Submitter: Noir
The Province of And out of the beer hall (x:xx)
[ StingerNET Formatter v1.2 ]
Server: World of Legends (Age 61)
Utopian Date: February 11, YR0
RL Date: March 23, 2014 (04:07:15 GMT)
Origin: Unformatted (1st hand)
Ruler Name: The Conniving PEGGGGYYYYYY Swordsmen 0 Land 410 Archers 0 Peasants 5
Personality & Race: The Tactician, Human
Land: 410 Acres
Money: 164,137gc
Food: 51,460 bushels
Runes: 216 runes
Population: 5,061 citizens (12.34 per Acre)
Peasants: 5,010 (95% Building Efficiency)
Trade Balance: 1,468,826gc
Accuracy: 100%
Military Eff. with Stance: 100% off. / 100% def.
Soldiers: 51 (1% estimated draft rate)
Swordsmen: 0 (0 offense)
Archers: 0 (0 defense)
Knights: 0 (0 offense / 0 defense )
War-Horses: 0 (up to 0 additional offense)
Prisoners: 0
Total Modified Offense: 51 (0.12 per Acre)
Total Modified Defense: 51 (0.12 per Acre)
Estimated Thieves Number: 0 (0 per Acre)
Estimated Wizards Number: 0 (0 per Acre)
** Current Effects: **
- None
** Networth Table: **
Total Networth: 13,183gc (32.15 per Acre)
and the provinces that you got released troops off, 5/7 were already chained from the top range all the way to the bottom 5 provinces of your kingdom.
If we knew this was allowed (but as most can see, we didnt do it), we would have gladly paid to do this. Anyone knows that you can go 23 v 25 with this strat and still win.
Reasons why we still declared on you guys? even if we were to lose, we will still break even in acres and slow you down. of course, no1 goes into the war thinking they would lose. also, you would have asked for another wave before any CF. Again, read the earlier post on how suspicious it is to get waved 6hours after oop from 2 isles away.
It's hawks server, and if you don't like it, noone is forcing you to use it?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOne
The first posts on the war forum was you guys saying "hi CR/HAVOC" and a bunch of silspeak. It was easy to guess that someone bad enough to be playing like you were and with a coherent setup/theme wasn't going to be ama/bb (they're not bad) but could be you. With all the silspeak etc it became obv to be you. Your setup also kinda looked unpolished.. so yeah...
You should be less paranoid and you shouldn't accuse ppl of stuff when you have no proof.
You really showed your real side these last weeks -- to imagine I used to speak highly of you to other leaders.. sheesh.