Orcs and undead are meant to have the best armies though.
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Orcs and undead are meant to have the best armies though.
Elves can cast on Faery. Halfling can thieve faery. Orc/Undead can break Faery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksel
Can't get touched?
I am ok with all the races the Faeries or even the Avians and Humans which is two of the most debative races here. I just have a suggestion about the Elf NM though, hopefully the development team could consider about it.
Faery is fine how they are because Sage was nerfed aswell, need mystic to utilize Meteor Showers (some kingdoms will aim for this), and they already took a 20% WPA/TPA reduction which offsets their space allocation. Lets use an example at 1000 acres for this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksel
Homes (10%): 100 x 33 = 3300
Other (90%) 900 x 25 = 22500
Total Population: (22500+3300)*0.90 = 23200
Wizards: 3rWPA * 1000 = 3000 wizards
Thieves: 3rTPA * 1000 = 3000 Thieves
Def Specs: 2DPA * 1000 = 2000 def specs (for dragon)
Elites: 7610
3000+3000+2000+7610 = 15610 used already
23200-15610 = 7610 left for peasants and elites
2000x5= 10000 defense
7610*8= 60880 defense
Base defense: 70880
70880*1.16= 82200 defense with Forts
3*1.3= 3.9 TPA and WPA (without sciences)
3.9*1.28 (rough estimate for non-sage) = 4.992 TPA/WPA
Elves with same rWPA: 3*1.5= 5.76WPA With sciences and their racial bonus (Used 128% for Channeling Science bonus)
Halfling with same rTPA: 3*1.5= 5.76TPA With sciences and their racial bonus (Used 128% for Crime Science bonus)
How can this be OP vs Elves, Undead, Orcs, and Halflings? I would either shift +30% damage on spells and ops to +20% damage on spells and ops and +30% WPA and TPA to +40% WPA and TPA or shift the -10% Population to -5% Population. Right now the Faery race is a bit weak. Either the population penalty reduction or shifting 10% from damage to WPA/TPA not both.
Undead and Orc are supposed to be attacking powerhouses. They lack in the ops department and Age 54 should show it if things are setup correctly. These two races will be able to break Faery provinces regardless of the old or new setup for Faery race bonus. The only reason Faery provinces seem broken is they grow larger than other provinces to improve their population a bit compared to attackers that are 200 acres or more below them. This factor, sciences, and honor (big part of it) are reasons why Faery provinces seem so powerful. However, In the same breath it's the pure attackers not attacking them throughout the age that helps create this issue.
i call bs on this, if an elf can get 1 MS on the faery in hostile with without 5+ fails beforehand then he certainly wont after hes gained acres and/or been massed. You have faery that is obliged to run mystic so is not going to be low wpa; not going to be massed in range in hostile, so not much damage can be done. On top of this, you get to cast MS all age and reel in the honour titles?Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Thievery i agree with to some extent, since you pigeon-hole the faery into going mystic for ms, a halfer/rogue is going to have you for breakfast, with land coming in for a couple days
I would hate to correct someone fighting on my side, but you calced this wrong. The extra pop from homes aren't modded by race pop mods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsu
lol...Quote:
Originally Posted by crease
Why would you cast MS on a faery?
Also, if you aren't knocking faeries out in hostiles, you are making a big mistake.
Then u dont know how to play a feary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Sure they can OP the feary, once on the top feary from my kd enemy elves tried LS, they filled his paper before one 80K runes burn, that could have been all kd attackers MS covered, then my m8s feary done one or two RoT and got even more runes than before.
CQing feary is dream, in reality in war u gain acres, nw, honor but milirary power drops. My wise king said to me, if u come out of war with same off as u came in u probably won the war, so if in the begining of the war only couple attackers have enough off to CQ feary, after few days that number will drop and noone will be chained, stomps cant be considered.
But ok, u are right, they are vulnerable on all sides, just look at honor rankings, so few fearies, must have been people dont like honor anymore.
*facepalm*
Yep, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Thanks for ruining my age.
Bishop
Fix MV make it only buff enemy spells when cast on kd mate. It's a double penalty not only does you kd spend mana and runes to get rid of enemy spells but it kills your spells as well.
Give rouge an operation to get rid of riots on friendlies.
Fix ambush, right now you can ambush other people's hits and ambush an ambush ??????
Thank you for the helpful advice :D. So the equation is ((total land*25)*0.90)+(# of Homes*8)? If so then my math was only off by 100 population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Actually if you are running all Orcs or Undead you better have enough provinces with MO to atleast Conquest a Faery cause if not there's something wrong. Might want to look into the setup and don't tell me you can't because I did the math on this. Oh well guess I'll just have to prove things this coming age.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickey
I agree, but not necesarily by 2 points. And on top of that, both undead and orc has a 9 point elite, which is stronger than a 7/7 army, because the multipliers have a bigger effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Orc/warrior in war: 1.15*1.15 (TGs) *1.076 (wages) = 12.8 point offensive elite. And then generals on top of that, but I'm not sure how they're calced so wont use them.
With fanaticism: 1.15*1.15*1.076*1.05 = 13.45
Def spec: 5*1.076 = 5.38
+ fana: 5*1.073*0.97 = 5.22
Total = 18.187
Total + fana = 18.67
Dwarf/warrior: 1.15*1.15*1.076*7 = 9.961 points.
+ Fana: 1.15*1.15*1.076*1.05*7 = 10.46 points.
Def spec: 5*1.076 = 5.38
Total = 15.341
Total + fana = 15.68
So the difference is 3 points now with fana on.
Wont do calcs for a 7/7 army , as it doesn't exist atm and I'm tired. But I do believe 9/5 is better than 7/7 because you can concentrate your modifiers on either offence or defence, where a 7/7 army would have to split them out to get the same effect.
So you want my mages to spend a lot of effort to keep the enemy 24/7 covered with Greed and MS while you can get rid of them by having a kingdom mate cast MV on you? With this suggestion, mages would just stick with FB and tornadoes as they can't be MV'd. If the enemy has the coordination to keep you covered 24/7 then they earned your suffering.Quote:
Originally Posted by dusk
There's nothing wrong with ambush. You can ambush any land hit except those that use Anon or WS. You can use anon on ambush if you don't want your ambush ambushed.
You can do ops on faeries yes, but problem is that you need a huge difference in tpa or wpa (depending on the op) to get a decent success rate. I played halfer/rogue this age with 6 raw tpa and some decent mods, and couldn't get through on faeries on more than 1 in 5 ops, and often less than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
But, I'm not saying faery should get completly ****ed, just lowered a bit. Like +20% stronger ops and +20% stronger wpa and tpa, which still is very strong IMO.
I do like the idea of being able to get rid of riots somehow, always found it stupid that it couldn't be removed. Perhaps a spell with 15% chance to remove or something ? or some op friendly provs could do on you? Would add some tactical options.Quote:
Originally Posted by dusk
If you reduce both +30% damage on spells and ops along with +30% WPA and TPA to what you suggest then Faeries become useless unless you remove their -10% Population penalty. Remember that Faeries still have the -10% population which is huge especially earlier on when they don't have a huge amount of honor or sciences pumped. Best thing would be adjust the bonuses for their race to either +25% damage on spells and ops along with +35% WPA and TPA or +20% damage on spells and ops along with +40% WPA and TPA. Then shift the honor bonus to where they get a small penalty on the honor bonus after Viscount honor rank regarding WPA/TPA bonus. Maybe even do this for the population bonus in honor section aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksel
For example a Faery's honor is Current honor rank*0.95 = new Faery honor bonus.
Count = 1.15 * 0.95 = 1.09
Marquis = 1.21 * 0.95 = 1.15
Duke = 1.27 * 0.95 = 1.21
Prince = 1.33 * 0.95 = 1.26
This would give them the nerf needed at the higher end without killing them at the lower end.
I think orcs and undeads are mainly OP by their spellbooks. I agree with those proposing that orcs lose RM or suffer some other slight nerf to compensate, as RM is a very powerful spell for an attacking race to have. Undeads should also lose GP, TW, or both.
Orcs' ability to train 9/2 elites with all the automatic spec credits now generated by war wins is awfully high-powered, especially when combined with the tactician's increase in credits from +30% to +50% this age. An orc tactician in a kingdom that's winning a lot of its wars is really a bit over the top. They definitely need a nerf of some sort, although a very modest one is probably about right.
Avians and humans, on the other hand, need a slight buff. Maybe give humans a 6/0 offensive specialist and avians a 0/6 defensive specialist or at least reduce the avian's elite cost?
Races and power based off the current changes:
Avian - Weak speed attacker (mainly space allocation issue) with thievery damage. Maybe make the elite 8/3 and it could work.
Dwarf - Decent for mage work and attacking but might run into a similar issue as Avians. Make elite 8/3 and could work.
Elves - Powerhouse mages and seems that is what they are now. Don't seem to be attackers except the sneaky land grabs here and there. Only a defense oriented on thievery or swap runes around.
Faery - Weak T/Ms but I guess a slight nerf that reduces their effectiveness but should be +20~25 damage on spells/op along with +35~40% WPA and TPA or drop to -5% population penalty. Right now very weak on space allocation especially early on.
Halfling - Powerhouse thieves and seems that is what they are now. Don't seem to be attackers except the sneaky land grabs here and there.
Human - Difficult race to play but seems to be the jack of all trades while not excelling at any. Seems more for experienced players. A buff of 6/5 elites will be good here.
Orcs - Powerful attackers and should only have espionage thievery (maybe give 100% Accurate intel here) along with self spells and MV cause they aren't thieves or mages. Loss of Reflect Magic aswell and will be good.
Undead - Powerful attackers and should only have espionage thievery (maybe give 100% Accurate intel here) along with self spells and MV cause they aren't thieves or mages. Maybe reduce the science penalty to -15% or -10% to compensate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksel
Why not have a way to get rid of riots? You have a way to get rid of plague. Maybe relate it to % of TD's you have. Just like hospitals give you a chance to clear plague. *shrugs* just throwing that out there.
I dont think I am. Faery has an 8 point elite, which is 33% higher than the 2nd highest def, and that's only 1 race that has that. So that plenty makes up for the less pop for a T/M.Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsu
You can also do their elite 3/7 instead and let them keep the T/M bonuses.
People seem to forget that RM is rather hard to cast and has a short duration. Orcs who want to use it a lot will have to build 15%+ guilds and 5%+ towers. In other words, Orcs will have to sacrifice building space to take advantage of RM.
I don't think Faery is boned at all? Fae has Clear Sight and Reflect Magic, and the benefits that having a t/m build brings, plus defense that most races will have a hard time breaking. A halfer or elf is still going to have a hard time cracking faery thief and mage defenses... it's just hard now as opposed to nearly impossible. Neither halfer or elf can defend themselves anywhere near as well as Faery can against attacks, both are vulnerable to magic or thievery respectively, and neither has all of the offensive spells a t/m would want to have. I think Faery is close to right... the only thing about Fae that needs to be balanced is boosting their elite nw to 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Actually it's only 25% better than the next best elite because Halflings have 5/6. 6/8= 0.75. The -10% population bonus is already a very harsh penalty which people don't realize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksel
Faery:
1000 acres (no homes): 22500 population (Atleast 2500 less population than other races)
1500 acres (no homes): 33750 population (Atleast 3750 less population than other races)
2000 acres (no homes): 45000 population (Atleast 5000 less population than other races)
2500 acres (no homes): 56250 population (Atleast 6250 less population than other races)
3000 acres (no homes): 67500 population (Atleast 7500 less population than other races)
The gap gets larger as the provinces grow. I would gladly switch to a 2/7 or 3/7 elite for the -10 population penalty to be changed to -5% population penalty, +20% damage on spells and ops, and +35 or 40% WPA and TPA. This or make Land Lust a Faery only spell and worth 1/5th (ofcourse NW and acre difference comes into effect the same way) of what an enemy would land grab for with adjusted honor boost aswell because right now the Faery race is a bit weak compared to the rest. The reason is if a Faery doesn't have the MO ability to make attacks and are basically sitting ducks due to being weaker than Halflings by 14%, Elves by 14%, and Orcs/Undeads (If built right) can easily chain Faeries then the Faery provinces need a way to survive.
Can we get any estimate on when the final changes might be released?
Honestly, I'd be curious on how many of the folks here actually PLAY a Faery. I know Palem does. I think I saw Landro say he's played one recently.
I agree 100% that Faery/Sage was sick strong. The problem was the combination of the two. The way they sit now, they are on a precarious slope IMHO.
Their ability to retal a hit has been severely nerfed. Heck, they can't even LL in an attempt to retal unless there is relations above normal. Their bonuses have been smacked pretty hard and that -10% pop is still there.
To be honest, when I played UD last age, my favorite food was Faery and I hit them on a regular basis so I'm pretty sure I'm not buying the unbreakable stuff because it just isn't true. PLAYING a Faery this age, I was easily breakable by orcs and UD's 200-400 acres larger than me. Let me tell ya, an Orc massacring your tiny fairy wings is NOT fun. Four or five Orcs on your tail can just ruin your day. So this unbreakable stuff is well, to be polite .... bull.
Haven't seen complaints about the war hero recently...
What if the war hero would gain honor for all successfull attacks ? Would be a small compensation to have extra honor source for the chained-to-knighthood scenario.
Another idea (not just for war heroes): the defender of a bounce gets some honor. But I think this comes late as a suggestion since it needs more tought to be implemented good.
On the same note, what if Sages' successful (land) attacks generated books ? Some small amount, like 10 times the acres got (which would be 1-2 BPA). It will be like the free 0.25 BPA per tick this age sage got, but you have to be active to get it. And it's not available to faeries.
Only top tier players know how to play faery, recognize the powah!!!
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...01964736_n.jpg
imo the changes to faery are fine and there is good balance and concept between faeries halfers and elves, i would rather the devs not giving in to demands for buffing/nerfing faeries
The issue with the Faery race was the Faery/Sage combo with high honor being OP. However, Faery by itself isn't superior in any way. Faery/Mystic and Faery/Rogue won't even get within 70% of where the old Faery/Sage was at. Yes, I agree it was good to nerf them a bit but I feel that the Faery race was nerfed too much since in a sense it ended up a triple nerf. First was the Sage nerf, Second was moving Meteor Showers to Mystic only, and third was reducing the Faery WPA/TPA by 20% while they have the worst population. This spells terrible space allocation unless you only want Faery provinces running a 2rTPA, 2rWPA, and rest in specs/elites or the remaining in all elites if you don't want to kill dragons during war. One or two of them is fine but all three nerfs will cause a widespread outbreak of Elf/Mystic and Halfling/Rogue combo as either pure mages or pure thieves. So yes the Faery race needs a small boost to balance the space allocation. Only looking for enough of a boost to put them back on the map for an equal option as other races not seeming like a weak link.Quote:
Originally Posted by teckghee1990
An 8/2 avian elite with slightly higher cost could possibly work in this field, but it would make avian quite strong depending on the cost and nw specifics. I think an avian with 8/3 elites would be too strong without adjusting other races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsu
Either one will work because in war especially Avians tend to keep their elites out on attack as often as possible running 3~4 attacks per day and this will give them a slight edge against the Halfling, Elf, and Human in military power especially if their NW for the elites aren't inflated with the change. My biggest concern is the space allocation issue with the amount of thieves needed compared to elites and defense specs required. Especially since the Avians lost 10% off their reduced attack time bonus which probably puts them to only 3 attacks a day now along with the loss of +1 defense specialist which were key bonuses tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahab
read post in wrong section. Agree that Turning orc elite to 8-2 and undead elite to 8-3 would be nice / make all the other races more balanced.
Also agree that doing this and giving faery a 1-7 elites with -5% pop would be nice. (faery cows then have to actually train off specs to attack, makes it harder for them to milk acres bottomfeeding in war.
good stuff age changes look fun
I also agree that orc should not get RM. Non-sage faery econ was already pretty shaky. Not only do the few remaining peasants that the fae has left go to training extra thieves/wizzies, but now they'll be eating MS the entire war against orc KDs since it is impractical to vortex every orc twice or so each before casting.
Even as far as the "heavy attacker" races go, orc stands head and shoulders above undead. The sci penalty is too harsh to compete with orcs and returning all ops doesn't help them a whole lot.
Edit: Also, avians are going in the wrong direction. The hybrid stuff is cool and all, but the whole reason people like avian in the first place is their lightning fast attack speed. Switching from mage bonuses to thief bonuses doesn't justify the attack speed nerf. If anything, it would mean a buff as the magic bonus goes over the cap while the thief bonus doesn't. I'd recommend a boost to either attack speed or a small reduction of combat losses like elves used to have a while back.
please please do not buff faery more than this.... they are too strong and made this game less enjoyable i even random moving because 6 of my kd mates choose faery...... the enemy never attacked our faery at all while we attacker beaten to a pulp.... when the war is over those faery honor whoring until reaches count/viscount while we attacker sit at the lower kd...loss both land and honor and get all the **** while those faery looking so mighty with 0 loss of land and ++ on honor..... this game is not enjoyable at all when there is no land exchange ..... log in once a day never get oped or attacked.... but the worst is their honor is so high with ridiculous bonus making them looks like the best player on whole kingdom......faery should have 2/7 leets with normal 5/0 offspecs so they are can be more breakable.... i'm sad that utopia has grown into this state (people tends to turtle.... less active but high honor).... you should even consider to remove this race and replace it with non turtle race
*takes off moderator pants*
Yep, because the honor system is stupid, broken, abusable, meaningless and overall just an entire joke within the community and because you have a bunch of random noobs who you have no control over and aren't good enough to kill off, Faery should be removed. Yea, really hit the nail on the head with that perspective.
Seriously, are you guys just messing with me?
*puts mod pants back on*
I disagree.
That's an issue with the kingdoms involved and the strategists who plan the wars or people not wanting to send out a large amount of their military force. Faeries are supposed to be hard to break because they can't attack. There is in no way that they were impossible to break this age unless your kingdom or the enemy kingdoms weren't running any Orcs/Undeads. In that case it's poor planning by individual kingdoms not game mechanics or race setup. However, You want to gimp a race to being virtually unplayable for the most part because you want to be easy mode on attacking. Yes under the current potential change the Faery race is lacking compared to other races. Already have been crunching the numbers and you are proposing that Faery races run are extremely terrible. Dwarves, Orcs, Undead, and Avians will be able to break the Faery through attacks if pure attacker build. Halfling and Elf will be able to break the Faery with ops. Halfling and Elf should have issues breaking the Faery provinces through magic/thievery while the Faery has the same issues. Only Undead and Orcs should be able to break a skilled Faery province. Anything else creates a serious imbalance in the game. This is what I'm getting at. Go do the math and come back because the numbers I got alone show the Orc able to Traditional March the Faery with 11857 MO breathing room and this is with basically no population bonus. If you factor in 5% population bonus for each it becomes a 16147 MO breathing room. These numbers were taken by doing "Total MO - enemy defense= MO difference". Comes out to 9% more MO strength with 1% pop bonus and 13% more MO strength with 5% pop bonus on both. This shows that the Orcs and Undead can easily break the Faery provinces when the Faery provinces have 3/8 elites. If you nerf the elites without boosting anything then the Faery race becomes dead and whoever wants this just has a personal grudge/issue with that race.Quote:
Originally Posted by bawoex
With a 62% draft rate, 4rTPA, and 4rWPA, the Faery race is left with less than 5k peasants and barely out of Traditional March status from Orcs/Undeads with this setup while not being able to attack. Even with a Faery province just outside of Traditional March status they can still be dropped with another attack. The Halflings and Elves can turtle then pick their times to attack while playing either a/T or a/M whereas the Faery can't attack at all being a T/M. This is early on with +1% population limit but even at +5% population limit it's only 5,297 peasants. The way the current potential changes are setup right now Faeries might aswell not do anything except turn into a kingdom bank.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
..
Just wanted to say I agree with this post to all those saying orc will be overpowered because of this spell.. This is not easy spell to cast and I kinda like the idea of attacking race having this option if they want to run more % guilds and towers.
Hard to keep it as an attacker when one hard chain of 20 attacks takes you from viscount to peasant in under 6 hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Since you just want numbers suggestions:
Avian Elite: 7/3
Dwarf BE: +20%
Undead: IMO remove their losses entirely, -50% science effectiveness
War Hero: Free draft instead of -50%
And Faery is really not overpowered, guys. They're supposed to look unappealing to your average attacker because they themselves can not attack.
I have no comment on Orc as I think they're ****ed because of ambush, but thats a risk people are willing to take. I just don't think a race being positioned as a hybrid (avain) should suffer from that same handicap.
Avian: They need a boost but this would be the smallest area they need patching on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz
Dwarf: Solid, but maybe a bit strong.
Undead: This would effectively ruin the race
War Hero: Might be abusable and make KDs run one just to aid spam. The do need a little bit of improvement though.