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Been a debate in the kingdom I reside in about this...I think its amusing cause to me under the right player they both can be equally beneficial to a warring kingdom..
Thought i would pose the question, which would ultimately be a better pick in the end run for a warring kingdom?
Halfer/rogue. +1 stealth = 25% more ops.
Dwarf/rogue would be able to abuse the TD quite badly and have better econ if you know how to play it right. Better for attacking but otherwise inferior to the halfling's bonus stealth. Halfers make better dragon killers too with their increased pop and 5 off specs.
1.) It's 33% more :pQuote:
Originally Posted by dieaready
2.) Dwarf/Rogue has +1 stealth/tick too
Dwarf/Rogue makes a better hybrid. Halfer makes a better tm. Neither are horrid decisions but what's a better pick comes down to what your kingdom needs more and how good the player is with running it.
They both have one thing in common:
Being bad.
Run fae for rogues.
Okay so this also gets thrown around alot in our kingdoms discussion......but the +50% thievery success(tpa).....some think its +50% tpa and others think that it means just more success rate.....with a couple even thinking it means both....
Can anyone here clarify its exact meaning? might help matters a bit.
It's TPA.
It technically means both. It's +50% TPA, which putting aside auto-fail mechanics, means you'll succeed about 50% more of the time.
So if one has say 400 thieves on 400 acres then its 1.5 tpa? guess i should of asked that more directly lol
Correct.
Thank you! :)
dwarf/rogue is fail.
halfer/rogue requires a feed setup but it's good (not necessarily ideal) if it can use ALL of it's racial advantages (not always a guarantee)
faeries are pretty crap for a ghetto. need to be in a good kingdom for faeries to really work now, to an extent that has always been the case. if you're in a good kingdom and your faeries are capable of tearing apart big defensive provs (basically, cows) then they're hugely good. in your average warring ghetto, faeries get farmed mercilessly for easy acres, from bigger kingdoms and from other ghettos, and if they do get shattered in war, rebuilding them is a ***** and a half. halfers at least can fall back to being pretty ****e but effective enough attacking provs.
if i ran a rogue in the ghetto, best just to pick halfer and deal with their weaknesses.
the only reason i would pick a halfer this age is for rogue, any other function is better filled by other races.
the other rogue i might run in ghetto is elf/rogue, but then it's mostly for fun. if the ghetto can't crack the elf/rogue (and it's certainly possible), then the elf does something similar to elf/mystic - camp while attackers wear themselves out and bloat, op while staying ub, and pick up easy acres when no one can do anything about the elf.
"means you'll succeed about 50% more of the time"
lol
Not sure what's funny. Been confirmed by BishopQuote:
Originally Posted by Suur
You must have misunderstood him then. For example lets say I already have 90% success. So with +50% tpa that would be ?
I don't have access to the code, and don't have a particularly insightful knowledge of how op success is calculated, but I would have to venture a guess of 93.3333333333333% (10% failure rate/ 1.5)Quote:
Originally Posted by BishopThey are equivilant.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiffArt
That could be correct, but is not what you said and what I lol-ed @
Iīm actually surprised there is so few Elf/Rogues. If you look in its numbers it has everything covered to make a decent hybride attacker. For example Faery has no real advantage to op it when decently pumped. Magic and thievery defense are both covered. Compared to Halfling/Rogue it seems a way better combo and has less weaknesses. Wars are about staying UB. Elf/Rogue can do much better than Dwarf and Halfling and same time contribute with thievery and Magic ops. Attack low def NM target or wait until it is safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
Elf/Rogue does everything you need a ghetto t/m to do - it ops, it nightmares, it defends, it grabs, and it has a cheapass defensive army (and that army doesn't die in droves when someone landgrabs or learn attacks). Biggest problem is that good Halfer/rogues can tear through them like butter if the halfers aren't accounted for.
Elf would be a lot more consistent, and if I only have a few t/m slots in ghettoland, it's prob something like 2 elf/rogue and 2 elf/mystic, rest attackers of various stripes.
I wouldn't view Elf/Rogue as a "hybrid", but they are better at hitting stuff than Faeries. You can set them up with good epa, but it's not like Elf/Mystic where the wpa bonus can compensate for bloat or slight AW. If other rogues aren't a problem and attackers aren't a problem, then the Elf/Rogue can hit away...
I was seriously considering it.
What worried me though was the NW of the Dwarf leets.
I actually decided both are viable A/T options with Dwarf the better Attacker and Halfers obviously the better Thief so depends which you want to focus on.
I worry about Halfers vulnerability to getting chained though...
I agree about Halfling Rogue being probably the biggest threat, but I cannot see them very succesfully breaking through 6+ rtpa comined with TD and can always add some WT when think it is worth. I did play Halfling Rogue last age myself.
With the 50% TPA bonus, a halfling will most certainly be able to achieve complete thievery superiority over an elf rogue. You will see many crappy halfling rogues that can't consistently op you, but any reasonably skilled halfling rogue will slice through another non-halfling rogue without any trouble.
That's why I said you'd have to account for Halfers, somehow. That probably won't mean matching Halfer TPA, but smashing the Halfers with your attackers before they can really AW or Prop.
Andurilas, Iīm not sure about that, you could be right but could not be. What experiences you have as Halfling/Rogue? I did not face any other Rogue with over half my raw tpa, so I cannot tell.
But trying to AW someone with nearly equal tpa does not make sense to me already because AW is such a weak op to do and waste of stealth and time considering Elf/Rogue can start attacking when dismantled TM wise. It is not over for him and playing UB is not itīs only option, but it can stay UB when need to even if you are correct - by adding WT in build when there is a serious threat in enemy KD.
Iīm not talking about Elf/Rogue as a pure UB TM. There will be others too. But as an option to be one. When the war starts and attackers start taking down eachotherīs TMs then you will always end up having them more up because of those Elves. Later on when attackers are running out of offense they can join in tapping NM target.
Dwarf rogue is just a silly idea but why not. Go for it and have a good time lol
Only way Dwarf rogue would be a fail is if you don't know how to play Dwarf. Dwarf/rogue is much better at A/T than Halfer. They can easily max TDs where a halfer can't even max them as soon as their BE drops below 100. Dwarves can also use hosps (at +30% BE). They have a better army (6vs5 + TG difference). The pop difference can be made up with 25% hosps. What most people fail to realize is that 75% land with the BE and pop bump of 25% homes gives virtually the same effect as 100% land with no homes for a Dwarf. here's an example
Dwarf with no homes and 8ppa gets a BE of 96.1 making 20% TDs +72% TPA. A Dwarf with 25% homes and 10.5 ppa gets a BE of 119.5 making 15% TDs +75% TPA. Sure, you will draft that extra 2.5 peons, but your BE will still be 10% better because of 25% less jobs and your army will be 2.5/acre bigger. No matter how you look at it, homes are huge for Dwarves. More so than other races. Halfers don't get their +10% pop bonus on the home bonus so homes hold 37.5 not 38.5.
While the Dwarf will never match the Halfer in TPA, the max TDs and their superior ability to pump science will close that +50% gap considerably.
For the morons who play Dwarf with no homes and use the BE bonus as an excuse to overdraft yourself into oblivion, a Dwarf with no homes and 4 ppa gets 80 BE for 57.5% TDs(20%). With 25% homes and 6.5 ppa, you get 99 BE for 62.37% TDs (15%) and +62.5% income from pezzies. Your banks are almost useless while I don't need any and still have a better economy and better thieves. Play it like a thug if you want to.
No, just no...
Seriously, you pick Rogue for AW/Prop/GA, which is going to require buff TPA. No way to play a Dwarf and do that without sacrificing something, and even if you make the sacrifices, you lack any strong racial bonus for thievery.
Nothing wrong with running high TPA on a Dwarf sometimes, but you don't want to be locked into that strategy. It's too easy to pick apart... or just ignore, because it won't be particularly effective in the long term.
Actually, if I was going to play A/T, I'd pick Dwarf rogue because I can max TDs easily, +1 stealth and +75% thievery science. If I want to do AW/Prop/GA, I would play Halfer rogue T/M. No matter what you play there is a sacrifice. In the case of Dwarf A/T it would be offense. That's OK though since max TDs only take up 15% land, there is still enough room for TGs or hosps. Dwarf with 4 tpa raw, max TDs and 100 bpa thievery science makes over 14 mod tpa. More than enough for attackers. Halfer A/T is a dud with no hosps and if you go cleric, you TDs will suck so bad as will science. Dwarf rogue would quickly pass Halfer non-rogue for TPA.
Once chained u wont be able to use personality like other attacker personas which are still beneficial (tact , war, cleric) after desertions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilmington
And dwarves/rogue should be ready to be chained with hybrid off/def before it can utilize thieves.
If halfer can go ub, they can get aided and train off specs + with agg. soldiers they can bottomfeed or be slayers.
No attacker can go UB unless they are just too big. With people regularly sporting 100+ opa, that's just not going to happen. I don't get many desertions because I am active and know how to mitigate them. Tact and cleric bonus costs me 10% land each, warrior costs 14%. I can run with all those with 15% TDs and still have 51% land for Homes, farms, guilds and towers.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Over
Only way I see a Dwarf/Rogue being good is if you're using them to have a Rogue cow. A Heifer (Halfer cow) doesn't have great cowing bonuses, but Dwarf/Rogue might be able to get up there. They'd still be less useful than a Sage or Merch cow, and it's better to use Fae/Rogues to target cows anyway, but the option is there I guess? Never really learned much about cowing, except how not to do it...
You assume u dont get chained and have perfect scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilmington
Those attacker personas are still in effect even if u dont have buildings like rax,tgs,hosp etc. Once deep chained what buildings completed u will have? It will be mostly under construction.
How to mitigate desertion is build some land, get sols aid and release thieves to sustain max military so u can keep multi tap.
Thieves are always first to release than military. At least it is how i overcome desertions when release is needed as attacker.
If u wanna play go try and have fun but u should not be the lonely dwarf/rogue in your kd.
Good Luck and let's have a exciting age.
I'm actually playing Halfer/rogue this age. I will be attacking oop, but that's about it...lol. Pretty much going superthief to destroy some Faeries. Prop won't be as effective when they get to all elite, but AW will be more effective cuz they will have more wizzies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilmington
Prop is also effective if u get their thieves and wizzies.
Proping enemy thieves is making ur next ops easier and easier while you r getting stronger. :) 1 rogue GA wts of mystic, other prop him to stone age,, save stealth and next mystic. Cs will stop some but halfling wont lose anything due to prop gains and cheap thieves.
And as halfer, if u gonna slay dragon, prop off spec ortiented enemy atatckers so u prop and slay with 5 points :)
good luck :)
Thieves and wizzies are what I'm going for. My job is to keep the Faeries off my attackers. A Faery/mystic with WTs instead of TDs is failing a lot and losing a lot of thieves when they do. That would be a real waste of +20% damage and +1 stealth. I would probably just AW him and let him kill his own thieves...lol.