Talking about me?
I don't complain about things lol
Talking about me?
I don't complain about things lol
Originally Posted by DHaran
Human really isn't playable in the top tier kd without being a merchant.
Palem, you know better than this. In war being unbreakables is of unreal value. Only faery can be truely unbreakable. It can get more def (for less NW, faery is the only race where 1pt def isn't 1 nw) than other races, it is both thief AND mage, so thievery or magic cannot be used against it.
Faery just isn't valid as the only race in the kd, it's strictly support, but to me, there is little wrong with that.
Sady, most comments are biased, some hide their bias better than others, but still you can almost smell the kd setup players want to run when posting these comments :( Hybridy players whine how attackers are overpowered and hybrids need a boost, pure attackers fear the t/m boosts and turtleability of hybrids, hyper active kds worry their avian need more racks.
Last edited by Yadda9To5; 27-04-2012 at 23:10.
http://www.upoopu.com/: an intel repository (or: "pimp alternative") for utopia (read the guide).
Faery is designed to be the go-to TM race; at least, that's supposed to be the intention behind the race. As far as that goes, it doesn't cut it. Yea, Faery makes a great bank (for lack of a better word) to hold on to acres and stay untouchable during a war and such, but that's not what they're supposed to be. As far as what they're SUPPOSED to be, they aren't worth it.
If we're going to change the role that faery is designed for, can we make it something more exciting outside of "untouchable entity"?
People fail to realize unread/warrior for warring kd, is the best setup.
Tons of warring kingdoms ran more faerys then usual this age because of how good they were. Top warring kingdoms running 3-4 T/M in a few cases upwards of 5!
I suspect next age we will see back down to the norm of 2-3. They are still very good and I suspect every warring KD will run some faerys even with elf looking like a relevant hybrid/support race for the first time in 3 ages.
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But faery is the uber TM, in war any half decent kd disables the other kds thieves/mages first, as the longer a war last, the more determining t/m ops are going to be. So yes, elves and other more specialized thieves or mages might start stronger, be more pumped on tpa or wpa. But they won't last a day unless a kingdom really has LOTS of pumped wpa/tpa provs so they can't all be disabled. Put that against a setup with few faeries, that will be able to hold their wpa/tpa and become bank. I'd prefer to have faeries in my kingdom any day.Faery is designed to be the go-to TM race; at least, that's supposed to be the intention behind the race. As far as that goes, it doesn't cut it. Yea, Faery makes a great bank (for lack of a better word) to hold on to acres and stay untouchable during a war and such, but that's not what they're supposed to be. As far as what they're SUPPOSED to be, they aren't worth it.
If we're going to change the role that faery is designed for, can we make it something more exciting outside of "untouchable entity"?
http://www.upoopu.com/: an intel repository (or: "pimp alternative") for utopia (read the guide).
Disagree. IIRC, max damage ceiling is not raised, so their damage is not beaten by human/avian. Faeries just have to send more thieves, but they also have more space for TDs and should have less losses. Faeries are still the second best thieves in the game.
Faeries will have way better economy and elves suck at attacking, so Faeries will play a better KD role.
Overall, Faeries fill that T/M+econ KD role very well. Much better than running hybrids would. Comparatively, I would much rather have a Faery and a heavy attacker like Orc than run an elf and an avian hybrid.
Last edited by coboss; 27-04-2012 at 23:36.
Bishop could you please clarify what you mean when you say faeries will have 'all racial spells' . Does that mean all the spells or just some undefined subset that we need to guess at?
lol whatever you say guys. I strongly suggest you don't run faeries. And no, not even 2-3.
Well, if Faeries remain the un-rivaled masters of Thieving and Mage ops, and they can keep UB defense, why would anyone ever play any other Hybrid-type support? The trade-off an Elf makes for those Mage abilities is no Thief potential, and thus inherently being vulnerable to thief ops, in addition to being capable of only a fraction of the DPA a Faery is capable of, and thus much more vulnerable to Massacres/Land-grabs.
I think those are some pretty massive sacrifices on the part of Elves to compete with Faeries in ONE thing they do well- only ONE thing, mind you - and leave themselves entirely vulnerable to a flurry of attacks/ops Faeries rarely ever have to worry about.
And Faeries should still be the best T/Ms overall, although potentially no longer both the absolute best Thief AND the absolute best Mage, both, by themselves. They're still very competitive, however, and no other race gets both a WPA/TPA bonus and a damage bonus- every other race gets one or the other, not both.
I like these changes a lot! I do think avian looks a bit weak compared to the other attackers. +40% theivery damage isn't much of a bonus, and with a 7/5 military you're hard pressed to get a decent TPA anyway. -20% attack time isn't enough to outweigh this, Imo. Warrior personality looks very interesting.
Avian is not playable with these changes. Orc had gains to counter the attack time, Avian is now at a disadvantage where anon + (negative gains) is not even close to being on par with orc. Along with the disadvantage to leaving war early against your opponent, and you're severely in the mud.
I would recommend leaving avian elite at 7/4 to balance it out.
Dwarf, elf, ud are good as baseline at the moment.
Orcs should change elite value to 8/3 and drop price by 50 gc, otherwise the 9/2 is too strong with the +gains and free credits.
Halfling needs some improvements. Halfling doesn't have build space to give up and is weak otherwise. 6/5 elite would be much better (on par with elf changes).
Faery seems OK but a little on the weak side. If the above are implemented you have choices between Elf/Halfer hybrids and Orc/Avian/Dwarf/Undead attackers + faeries as t/m is also possible.
Human can currently bank with Merchant, but i don't really see where else it is viable. Dropping the nw value of elites from 5.5 to 5 might work, otherwise it's got the same problems as halfling always did - nw inflation.
Human is garbage now without the BE, and no one is going to play dwarf when the other attackers are twice as good.
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Avian:
I think they look pretty good, fast attack and thievery capable of destroying a defence to allow multi-taps, almost like a "swarm". It's the losses that would put me off them, with no real turtling capability they have no real reason to keep those low def leets home it's almost best to keep your troops out. I think it would be nice to give them a +10% on the enemy they kill per attack, they already have a hidden extra kill method because of the less land grabbed multipled by there attack time. Mix in the Thievery aspect and they already look like nasty def destroyers, ATM tho I do think Avians lack when compared to others and a bonus like this could balance it. Better than a reduced losses which Undeads and Clerics already have.
Dwarf:
Ideal Bench mark IMO for the other races, they can be very strong A/m with the CS and +BE on WT, more defencive against opps compared to Elves which appear to be the other main A/m race, but leets less physically defencive. Nice trade.
Elves:
They do look strong but vulnrable to thieves if not careful, I wouldnt mind playing them as they are now, dont think they need anything done to them.
Faery:
5(wpa)*1.3 = 6.5 (Fae)
4(wpa)*1.5 = 6 (Elves)
After reading what Palem has to say I've got to wonder why sug against running Faes for TMing? Dispite being a lower % bonus, it is being applied to a greater base figure and will generally yield much greater results at higher base figures, Faes should be running higher base figures considering they have the best NW velue leet and no off needed in TMing. To be able to cast MS on Elves then you'll need a decent Fae/Mystic who has the a stable WPA throughout a war (unless massacred) and built correctly to gain the modded WPA, which is better from a base figure. I think this is nicly balanced to be slightly stronger then A/m or A/t while not being vulnrable to other Faes only.
Halflings:
Again I wouldn't mind playing this as they are, strong thieves and good def leet for there NW, soldiers are also 1.5NW? If so then they have a great turtling capability and less risk to NS... but as Elves are at risk to thieves, Halfers have there weakness in magic. I'd play this with Warrior, the -BR would just incourage me to kidnapp when low on pezzies (which can gain nice honor), the +1 stealth would help with that and kidnapping can help the kd in the long run. Just like the Elves, the +1 offers potentially great reward (for kd and personal honor) but with the reward comes the risk of weakness to the opposite suport role.
Humans:
Only reason why I'd play this is to go Sage, they look abut the only race that could look at playing A/T/M smartly but they'll need sh*t load of pumping, untill then they're lacking IMO. Lower there leet NW to 5, this I wouldn't say would overpower them at all, they'll still need the WPA/TPA which costs NW for no military strength to make use of there benefit. Increase the cost to 800gc as the penalty for such versatile leets. They could ToG for the GC to buy them if income low but that then would hinder any mage output... bit like a double edged sword. Humans are stong in the Potential Changes but nt as strong as Dwarfs or Elves or Halfers.. only Avians IMO.
Orcs:
For a aggressive attacker they look nicly balanced, yes they're in some ways overpowered in there attacking capabilities but with those gains they'll soon become vulnrable to opps, looking at the other races then I would say this overpowered raw attacking capability has been balanced out. Strong at the beginning and the risk of becomming a land shell later on, compared to the Undead (other heavy att IMO) which can be weaker at the start growing stronger.
Undead:
I would swap "Successful land attacks convert specialists to elites" to "Successful attacks convert specialists to elites" and reduce the sci penalty to -20% while also giving them a -20% penalty with honor as well. I think the capability to also convert troops on massacres as well as land grabs will defenatly appeal when looking at the possable strengths of the hybreds.
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