Age 54 Potential Changes Rev II

[MistyM]

humans:

I agree with those that say human is little weak. I know +10% pop is pretty good bonus, but just comparing them to faeries who also have tree of gold they don't seem like that strong of attacker. 5/5 is pretty gimp when you can say faery can produce a 8 defense elite and 3 offensive spec=11 and best human can do is 10. I know faeries have -10% pop bonus, but they have modded wpa/tpa(compensates with pop bonus needing less thieves/wziards to achive the same wpa/tpa) numbers in addition to +30% ops damage. It will be very hard for human to achieve in my view a very strong province that is hybrid when it seems even compared to faery it seems blah which is bad considering faeries are not an attacking race! i know Turtles have a certain advantage above static defenses but still they are quite weak when it comes to other races in the role of hybrid. Perhaps something unique like stables hold 50% more horses making horses and option worthwhile in this game, or just taking them down to +5% pop and making there elite 6/5, or just giving them straight +10% science effect or something might go a long way to just sure them up. This is my opinion of course, but i just feel the +50% damage is powerful but not if you just cant produce the numbers to make it a successful hybrid. +50% damage just doesnt help much if you fail your ops :)

avians:

Maybe slightly weak. Perhaps just small boost. I like the idea of making them less ambush-able but with their lower attack gains I don't see it as that strong of a boost. I was thinking perhaps more along the lines of giving them Invisibility spell might help some to go along with thief op bonus and perhaps 10% reduction in cost of thieves.

Sage:
-5% science cost or small amount of books per acre. Just a little to add something to this. Very hard to make sciences alot strong without any help in adding books, tho I suppose if you in kingdom that wins wars you can be strong sage, but it requires kingdom winning wars or not warring..poor chaps who war and loss as sage are most penalized personality in game. Perhaps something intresting like sage even in loss war "learns from thier" losses and gains 20bpa across the board. Couldnt be very strong or this would be abused I suppose.

I like everything else pretty much and the direction things are going, mechanics and racial changes. I always feel that to make the game more interesting you should always make races more unique with more bonus and do a few as possible negatives to each race. For example balance the races by giving them all buffs that balance out instead of alot of penalties that balance out and that's how I see the direction is going more, so good job. I know sometimes if just becomes necessary for there to be negatives to balance, but make it last case scenario.( ie:like dwarfs not being able to accelerate construct, this makes sense as not to overpower their ability to free building) Since it is fairly radical changes hard to put a exact balance on the numbers in my mind.

Disclaimer:(lol)My opinion is posted here and I know people will disagree :) but it just writing how I look at races and whether I would choose to play that race/person or not and why. Cheers~

[BiGs]

You give human all these T/M bonuses but they will never get the numbers to make use. +10% pop gives a bit of compensation, but really human should get something else. Maybe raising elites to 6/5 would even it out a bit. Perhaps a NW advantage, instead? If you left the elite at 5/5 with +10% pop you could change the NW value of the elite to maybe 4. Giving them a usable edge again.

At first I liked the +50% horses idea mentioned above. But I feel the most negative downside to horses is the NW influx. I would support this idea (instead of the above NW idea) if it was increased horse capacity AND horses have no net worth value. Maybe also add horse capacity to another build for human as well, homes hold 60 horses by default. Either way, giving human enough horses for every attack, without adding NW to their already bloated stack and minimising build % needed would compensate their low troop figures.

MistyM: a offensive AND defensive elite has a clear advantage over a defensive or offensive only elite. To have the option to send only what you need maximising defense for every attack, coupled with the turtling option by just not attacking is a massive advantage. To just add elite values up and have that as your reasoning of imbalance is not very effective.

I think it is a good idea to give a race potential hybrid qualities but making it very difficult to play. A high risk play style that would be attractive to the more experienced players. This is how it should be. I just think hu are a bit too low atm, but just a bit.

[kilava]

Buffing Rogue

I thought rogue could use a buff, but I was unsure on what to give them. You could give them more +damage or thievery efficiency but there already is a lot of those going around. Instead I was thinking of:

1. Increasing maximum possible damage (Max % of Total) by ops by X% (perhaps 10%) this would work well with + damage done. (If the normal max is 10% rogues would be 11%)

or

2. Increase the thievery ops war bonus (is 25% now). Please note that the maximum possible damage (Max % of Total) isn't the same in war and outside of war for some ops.

Edit: See Thievery Yield (wiki) on war bonus.

or

3. Removing or lowering % lost resources on ops. (stealing food, gold, horses and kidnap)

[Twyla]

After reading what a lot of others have had to say (and weighing things accordingly), here's what I believe to be an equitable balance:

The Races

Avian
-20% Attack Time
+40% Thievery Damage
+1 Defense Specialist Strength

- 10% attack gains
No Access to Stables

Spell book: Town Watch, Fanaticism, War Spoils (Removed Vermin)
Elite: 8/3, 800gc, 7.0NW

Since the Devs are aiming towards a bit more hybridization, I worked towards making Age 54's Avians the Thievery counterparts of Age 53's Elves. Like Elves, they retain their 6-point Defense Specialists - freeing up a bit of room needed for Thieves.

Also, their Elite has been revised comparable to an Elf. Whereas an Age 53 Elf Lord is 7/3, 600gc, and 6NW - 8/3 and 6.6 NW when mounted - the Avian would be 8/3 (same) and 7.0NW (vs 6.6NW) but 200gc more expensive to compensate.

While I still disagree with reducing Avian's attack time bonus - particularly by that much - such a reduction would be a tolerable trade-off with the Thievery mod and revised Elite.

Dwarf
+ 20% BE
+ 30% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
Free Building Construction
Can use credits to raze buildings

+ 50% Food consumption
Accelerated Construction not available

Spell book: Quick Feet, Fanaticism, Fools Gold, Clearsight
Elite: 7/4, 750gc, 6.25NW

Apart from the -25% TpA mod, Age 53's Dwarf wasn't bad. Adding the Magic mod and improving the offense of their Elite (which the Devs already did) is plenty in that department. Only change needed is a slight tweak to the NW of their Elite.

Elves
+50% Magic Effectiveness (WpA)
+1 Mana Regen in War
+1 Defense Specialist Strength

Spellbook: Clearsight, Pitfalls, Reflect Magic, Amnesia, Nightmare (Removed Mage's Fury)
Elite: 7/3, 600gc, 6NW

If Elves are to remain viable as A/Ms, they need to retain their Age 53 Elite. Apart from that, a slight tweak to their Spell Book is all that is needed.

Faery
+30% damage on Spells and Ops
+30% WPA and TPA

-10% Population
-2 Offensive Specialist Strength

Spellbook: All racial spells
Elite: 3/8, 1000gc, 7.5NW

So far as I'm concerned, the Devs nailed this one - nothing I can think to change on it.

Halflings
+50% Thievery Effectiveness (TpA)
+1 stealth
-50% thief cost
Homes are twice as effective (BR subject to DBE)

-25% Birth Rate

Spellbook: Invisibility, Town Watch, Mystic Aura, Aggression
Soldiers: 2/2
Elite: 5/6, 550gc, 5.75NW

Halfers were moderately well this Age though, with losing the Population and Recon bonuses, they need something to compensate. Making Homes more effective for them (16 extra pop vs 8) offers similar increases while doing so at a price. They keep Aggression (for their 3/1 Soldier tactic) and also gave them Mystic Aura - appropriate for the jammy lil buggers and a modest boost.

Humans
+10% Population
+40% damage on Spells and Ops

Spellbook: Greater Protection, Tree of Gold, Fountain of Knowledge, War Spoils
Elite: 6/6, 700gc, 6.75NW

At a bit of a loss where Humans are concerned, as they now have no clear-cut role - then again, one of their classic hallmarks is versatility. Increasing their Elites to 6/6, combined with their Population bonus, grants them that flexibility.

Orcs
+20% gains
Can train elites with credits

-50% damage on Spells and Ops

Spellbook: Bloodlust, Fanaticism, Aggression, Shadowlight, War Spoils (Removed Reflect Magic)
Elite: 9/2, 850gc, 7.5NW

Removed Reflect Magic, as it makes no sense for any Race which does not have a propensity for magic. War Spoils, however, is an appropriate replacement.

The Undead
-50% Offensive losses on attacks you make
Successful land attacks convert specialists to elites
Spreads and is immune to The Plague
No food needed

- 25% science effectiveness

Spellbook: Greater Protection, War Spoils, Animate Dead, Chastity (Removed Town Watch)
Elite: 9/3, 1000gc, 8.0NW

Town Watch is simply not an appropriate spell for Undead - as with Orcs, replaced with War Spoils.


The Personalities

The Merchant
+30% Income
-50% Money Losses on Plunder Attacks
Immunity to all Income Penalties (Riots, Plagues, etc.)


The Sage
+ 25% Science effectiveness
-66% Losses on Learn Attacks
Immune to The Plague


The Rogue
+1 Stealth recovery per tick
Access to all thievery operations, including 3 unique to rogues: Greater Arson, Assassinate Wizards and Propaganda
Thieves Dens are twice as effective (subject to DBE)


The Mystic
Access to Meteor Showers and Mage's Fury
All Guilds and Towers are twice as effective
+50% Spell Duration (For Duration Spells Only)
+1 Mana regen in War


The Warrior
+1 General
+15% OME in war
Enhanced Conquest range


The Tactician
Gain 50% more Specialist and Building Credits
-15% Attack Time
Accurate Espionage (in war)


The Cleric
- 50% Your Military Casualties (on attack or defense)
Animate Dead spell always active

All of these are near-perfect as presented, so... Yeah, here they are - again. :p Only change made was adding Mage's Fury to Mystic, where it rightly belongs.

The War Hero
+50% more bonuses from honor
-50% draft expenses
Immune to Dragons
Units sent to fight Dragons cause 1 additional damage each

This one really drew my attention in an odd direction...

War Heroes are, well, heroes! They're famous (or infamous), so the +50% Honor Effects is quite suitable. As people are more eager to join a War Hero in their various enterprises, the decreased expenses for drafting made sense as well.

Decreased training times, however, didn't make sense. If anything, they'd be liable to increase due to the extra time needed to weed out the fanboys who got in over their heads.

And then it hit me... "Why do we need to cower in the presence of a Dragon?!? OUR leader is a great WAR HERO!!" That courage also extends to the troops sent to kamikaze against Dragons - they're actually EAGER to die in the service of a War Hero, each troop inflicting 1 extra point of damage against an enemy Dragon.


Well, there's my nickel for this go-round...

[dusk]

Fix Ambush its retarded that you can ambush an ambush and that you ambush hits on other people before you ambush your hit fix it !!!

[crease]

And then it hit me... "Why do we need to cower in the presence of a Dragon?!? OUR leader is a great WAR HERO!!" That courage also extends to the troops sent to kamikaze against Dragons - they're actually EAGER to die in the service of a War Hero, each troop inflicting 1 extra point of damage against an enemy Dragon.

this has been discussed in length and will never happen as it is pure abuse as its finest. every kd must run this persona to aid it soldiers which kill 2 points instead of 1, hey presto dragon costs half as much to kill, send us the next one plz?

Fix Ambush its retarded that you can ambush an ambush and that you ambush hits on other people before you ambush your hit fix it !!!

Why is there anything wrong with this mechanic lad?


We need to discuss how to balance rogue/WH and avian almost exclusively. Not stuff that is working fine and will continue to do so next age

[crease]

1.5NW, this works out to be ~0.75opNW, wiki has off points value of 0.8opNW, only a 0.05 difference so is it really worth it for offence? Better for def than off, halfers leets tho are very nice for there dpNW. In def the values listed are 1NW for 1 def point, sols will be 3/4 of the NW for def points (exluding acres, wizzies, thieves which all dilute the ??NW values).




RE:Humans
This isn't in reply to any one person but from what i've read in this whole thread.

Has anyone considered that humans are not meant to be a "normal" race? To me they look like they have the greatest potential to run a/T/M, using forts instead of TG and the 0.5dpNW increase from the leets are acceptable if you dont run a full leet army but only using enough leets to "bottomfeed" or end of chain razes while staying unbreakable. Example of 10dsPA, 4EPA, 4WPA and 4TPA would still give you 5.5ppa.

They also look like dodgy "tanks", many ppl played MMORPGs? Aggro control.
Seeing a provence that has sent out too many troops can lead to them being targeted by kds that chain provences, more so if that provence made a so called bad hit and gained no land (maybe bounced), humans look like the expert race for this, to be precise Human Sage. The chain would pump up the WPA/TPA during the 1st wave which would inadvertanly boost there WPA/TPa and lend strength to there racial bonuses and at the same time allow other kd members to get a productive 1st wave in to set the stage, with the war win rewards I doubt many wars will be min time only and being able to help direct your opponants hits can be a useful thing.


Humans dont really have anything for attacking other than the WS spell, no +1 off spec or offencive leet and as such this doesn't scream out as a attacking race. If anything this race seems more of a oppertunist race, and as such I do feel the only change needed to be ballanced would be to decrese the leet NW to 5NW each.

let me find your human a/t/m after being chained in a war next age, and double tap learn farm you for rest of age while ur troops are all home ok? Sage will be NO PROTECTION for the 5k bpa you will need to be competent at even 1 of these roles, and that 5k bpa will be 58 nwpa without counting the extra pop you will have. Yeah here's to 300 nwpa.

1k acres with modest 100 opa and fairly low 250 nwpa based on ur expectations is 250k nw

250k nw orc is 1300 acres at 150 opa

human off:100k
orc off: 195k
human 35 dpa:35k
orc 35 dpa: 45.5k

orc can in this situation 5tap you and you can 1tap and 2-3 ambush. and add to that you get to fb ur own pezzies with RM. Gonna be a fun fight no?

hit the like button! reply with quote that is. hah:D

[Avenger]

[...]
Well, there's my nickel for this go-round...

Avian 8/6 armies with -20% attack time AND War Spoils?
Orcs with War Spoils?
Stop suggesting stuff please. /facepalm

[Twyla]

this has been discussed in length and will never happen as it is pure abuse as its finest. every kd must run this persona to aid it soldiers which kill 2 points instead of 1, hey presto dragon costs half as much to kill, send us the next one plz?

You do realize, of course, just how quickly 20 times your NW in Aid is going to wreck your Trade Balance, don't you? Once taxes are factored in, it would take 2-3 times as many Soldiers for the War Hero to kill the Dragon as it would had the individual Provinces just sent the Soldiers themselves.

Or perhaps you mean if most EVERY Province in a Kingdom was a War Hero so that they could send massive hordes of Soldiers into the fray as Utopia-brand Dragon Chow... Which would be kind of awesome, excepting for the fact that they pass up bonuses from other Personalities that are actually of some use in situations other than killing Dragons.

[crease]

Avian 8/6 armies with -20% attack time AND War Spoils? Stop suggesting stuff please.

lol missed that one^^ now you stole my chance to troll!

You do realize, of course, just how quickly 20 times your NW in Aid is going to wreck your Trade Balance, don't you? Once taxes are factored in, it would take 2-3 times as many Soldiers for the War Hero to kill the Dragon as it would had the individual Provinces just sent the Soldiers themselves.

Or perhaps you mean if most EVERY Province in a Kingdom was a War Hero so that they could send massive hordes of Soldiers into the fray as Utopia-brand Dragon Chow... Which would be kind of awesome, excepting for the fact that they pass up bonuses from other Personalities that are actually of some use in situations other than killing Dragons.

please do note, increased pop and ToG.... its not hard to aid out 100x ur nw between wars, as for the thought of it being either 1 prov or 25 that use this there's obviously a moderation, its not black and white 1 or 25 rofl.

[Twyla]

Avian 8/6 armies with -20% attack time AND War Spoils?
Orcs with War Spoils?
Stop suggesting stuff please.

Yet Undead Tactician with 9/5 armies (10/5 if mounted), -15% Attack Time, War Spoils, spreads/immune to Plague, no food needed, free Elites, and -50% offensive losses is weak by comparison?

And, just for the record, War Spoils can be as much bane as blessing. Sure, you get the land sooner, but your armies can still be Ambushed and your NWpA is grossly deflated, as are your WpA and TpA. By not using War Spoils, you at least have the defense values from your Elites to help defend your new lands - and more time to build up other protections as well.

[Avenger]

Who the frack mounts their 9/5 armies? And yes, that undead is pure crap in comparison to your avian and WS orcs. You obviously have no clue.

[crease]

Yet Undead Tactician with 9/5 armies (10/5 if mounted), -15% Attack Time, War Spoils, spreads/immune to Plague, no food needed, free Elites, and -50% offensive losses is weak by comparison?

And, just for the record, War Spoils can be as much bane as blessing. Sure, you get the land sooner, but your armies can still be Ambushed and your NWpA is grossly deflated, as are your WpA and TpA. By not using War Spoils, you at least have the defense values from your Elites to help defend your new lands - and more time to build up other protections as well.

undead doesn't get tact by default, and neither did you compare avian tact with undead tact. avian gets 25% more hits per time (1/0.8) wheresas undead has LESS offense than an avian with 8 point off leet and 6 pt dspec. Calc all that imba and come back?

[crease]

nvm i will do it for you:

pop on both:

assume 12% pop sci on avian, 9% on the undead. (undead -25% eff means sci on avian is 1.33x)
pop: (assuming no homes or honour)
undead = 27
avian = 28


35 dpa:30raw with wages+mp

avian ----5 dspec/acre
undead -6 dspec/acre


assume undead has 19 mpa avian has 20, both with 2 raw tpa

avian gets 13 epa (20 - (5+2)) 71% draft
undead gets 11epa (19 - (6+2)) 70% draft

13*8=104 raw opa
11*9=99raw opa, presto avian gets 25% more hits and more offence? Have fun with ur undead k?

if there is ever some honour or a prov with REAL science on the table then this imba widens significantly

[Realest]

We need to enforce a minimum of 100 IQ to post in here. Some of you must have suffered brain damage at some point in your life based on what i'm reading. I suggest scheduling an appointment with a neurologist, very obvious signs of frontal lobe impairment in these posts.