Should Proteus pay KuhaN?

[Realest]

Like Proteus said: get an education Baka, you don't know contract law.. because a gentlemen's bet is an enforceable agreement, just like a contract. Wait?


PS Realest would have been a fair second choice after The Hon. AquaSeaFoam. I vouch for him, plus money doesn't mattter to him.

the lawyer has chimed in already, so what's the issue?

[Evillone]

Ever been to a casino and they let you bet without your money on the table? I think not

Yes i have! on to next lame excuse!

[PhoenixScorpion]

In what alternate universe do you live in where you make a bet and need some neutral person to handle the money?

If you make a bet and welch you're a giant douche, Someone said I'll bet $100 and someone else agreed, its a damn bet. If you lose pay up. You don't need a contract and an escrow/title company in order to enact a bet.

flogger, as much as I have respect and love for you , what alternate universe do you live in where people let you bet without placing money first? Anyone who has actually gambled for MONEY, and not just been messing about with friends having fun knows this is the way gambling and a bet works. To claim otherwise is folly and childish. You either put up the money or shut up, bets are not made and real until money is out and on the table. Until then is nothing more than people running their mouths. This is age old in gambling precisely because of these types of disputes and disagreements, but pretty common knowledge to those who actually make wagers with other real gamblers.

As far as the stooges here trying to refer to a gentleman's wager, perhaps you should actually know what your talking about before you go jumping on the bandwagon being an internet troll.

Gentlemen's bet

A variation on the gentlemen's agreement is the gentlemen's bet, wherein there is nothing to win or lose through the bet, other than the honor of winning and shame of losing.

Gentleman's bets are not made with MONEY, they are simply wagers based on prestige and honor. Both of which are sorely lacking from a majority of the trolls here.

Now had Proteus made a wager based on some act of humiliating himself, lets say agreeing to delete his province, go VM for rest of age, or ,posting something, etc that was non-monetary then KuhaN and most of the trolls here would be justified in their position. Since this is not the case and obviously the majority here have never gambled for real with people they do not know and only as informal exchanges with their friends, then stop crying and learn how to place a bet like a man instead of a little boy. Funny KuhaN sure wasn't here begging for a mediator or third-party and only waited until he was assured of winning to pursue it. Highly suspicious when he had every opportunity and been more than enough people actively monitoring this thread to have cemented the bet with a third party. Next time either put up or shut up and stop crying like a baby. Typical Utopian behavior.

[curdie]

$100 isn't even a lot of money. Just pay up!

[PhoenixScorpion]

$100 isn't even a lot of money. Just pay up!

It is not about the money. It is the principle. I wouldn't pay KuhaN either unless he had put up his money with a third-party, yes Proteus offered ASF, but why didn't KuhaN propose or find a mediator if he was serious? Get real. Any bet or claims made without action is nothing, just talk.

Edit:

BTW. IF it was a "gentleman's wager", where was the handshake? Ill play devils advocate and say ok it was the beginning of a gentleman's wager, but then the escrow in this case would serve as the handshake if the bet was based on the honor of the parties involved.

[KuhaN]

It is not about the money. It is the principle. I wouldnt pay KuhaN either unless he had put up his money with a third-party, yes Proteus offered ASF, but why didn't KuhaN propose or find a mediator if he was serious? Get real. Any bet or claims made without action is nothing, just talk.

I didnt save logs but i pm'd proteus on irc confirming bet and he said yes. Then i said i was trying to contact ASF so he could hold my money and proteus never responded.

So you're telling me Proteus cannot get ahold of his kingdom mate over the timespan of 48 hours? No SMS or anything? And you think he'll let Realest or someone else hold $100? Lol, the reason why i never considered someone else holding it because i knew Proteus would never ship $100 to a middle party other than a kdmate. It's called common sense, I'm not wasting my time and energy here.

I was very serious of the bet. Either Proteus was a) too scared to go on with the bet or b) trying to scam me. What saddens me is that if this was the other way around and Sanctuary had somehow won, I would have paid the $100 when asked. Say what you want, but it's the truth.

[PhoenixScorpion]

I didnt save logs but i pm'd proteus on irc confirming bet and he said yes. Then i said i was trying to contact ASF so he could hold my money and proteus never responded.

So you're telling me Proteus cannot get ahold of his kingdom mate over the timespan of 48 hours? No SMS or anything? And you think he'll let Realest or someone else hold $100? Lol, the reason why i never considered someone else holding it because i knew Proteus would never ship $100 to a middle party other than a kdmate. It's called common sense, I'm not wasting my time and energy here.

I was very serious of the bet. Either Proteus was a) too scared to go on with the bet or b) trying to scam me. What saddens me is that if this was the other way around and Sanctuary had somehow won, I would have paid the $100 when asked. Say what you want, but it's the truth.

ASF is next to impossible to get ahold of, and hasn't been around since before this bet was placed. Provide a log of ASF talking to anyone in the Utopian community during the time-span stated. Yes, its possible to not get ahold of a KD-mate over a 48 hr period, ever heard of sitting? There is more than enough trusted Utopians to have had someone serve as a third-party which was clearly stated by Proteus in this thread as part of the bet. Had he waited until after or never mentioned a third party then you would have a defendable position. Since he clearly asked for a third party, then unless that was fufilled your bet was meaningless. Hope that helps.

Also if you was so serious about the bet, then why wouldn't you save these logs of this exchange between you and Proteus? I know if I was serious I would surely have saved logs, if like you stated above, you suspected you would scammed and he would not pay. Which you stated shortly after you agreed to the bet further back in the thread. If you had spent as much energy following through on the bet and making it formal as you are crying about not getting paid, you wouldnt be in this situation to begin with ;)

[Evillone]

Phoenix, didn't bother to read your whole post but a gentlemens wager can just be for bragging rights or a bet of honor/prestige. That definition is correct but it can also be understood to mean that the bet is on your honor. In other words its assuming both people are infact gentleman so they will pay the bet to not dishonor themselves. This is common at places like golf courses where many people might not be carrying around thousands of dollars or have a ATM readily available so being able to put the cash in "escrow" is literally impossible. It's the exact same thing as a gentlemens agreement, some type of agreement made on a hand shake not a contract. The meaning is essentially that the person is putting up their name as collateral, if you welch your name is not worth a damn. Actually I know people who have been kicked out of private golf clubs for stuff like this because they are considered gentlemens clubs and if you prove you are not a gentleman then they don't want ya.

[Korp]

There is more than enough trusted Utopians to have had someone serve as a third-party which was clearly stated by Proteus in this thread as part of the bet.

So if ASF is next to impossible to get ahold of why would Proteus suggest him to begin with? That seems odd that Proteus if serious with the bet would suggest someone that is impossible to contact. Like he was trying to escape the bet if someone actually betted against him.

Had he waited until after or never mentioned a third party then you would have a defendable position. Since he clearly asked for a third party, then unless that was fufilled your bet was meaningless. Hope that helps.

So, he asked and provided for a third party why should KuHan then refuse Proteus and go find another third party?

[KuhaN]

ASF is next to impossible to get ahold of, and hasn't been around since before this bet was placed. Provide a log of ASF talking to anyone in the Utopian community during the time-span stated. Yes, its possible to not get ahold of a KD-mate over a 48 hr period, ever heard of sitting? There is more than enough trusted Utopians to have had someone serve as a third-party which was clearly stated by Proteus in this thread as part of the bet. Had he waited until after or never mentioned a third party then you would have a defendable position. Since he clearly asked for a third party, then unless that was fufilled your bet was meaningless. Hope that helps.

Also if you was so serious about the bet, then why wouldn't you save these logs of this exchange between you and Proteus? I know if I was serious I would surely have saved logs, if like you stated above, you suspected you would scammed and he would not pay. Which you stated shortly after you agreed to the bet further back in the thread.

Then why would Proteus even recommend ASF to begin with? You do know the order of events right? Proteus was calling out people to accept a $100 bet on IRC and in forums. I accepted and asked how to make sure there was no foulplay. So he suggested ASF, and I accepted. Why would your monarch suggest someone in his kd to hold money when that person is being sitted? Also, afaik ASF has been active in these forums, i've even seen him reading these threads, he just ignores people when he wishes.

I talked to Proteus over mobile, if the convo was longer i probably wouldve copied it. Didn't think it'd matter over 3 lines of messaging, with Proteus just saying yes and then going afk lol.

You're just defending your friend here, and you have no idea what's going on. I don't even care that much about the money, I just find it funny that you're saying i wasn't serious about it. Maybe you should ask persain and elit for logs to see if i was serious or not.

[Evillone]

I have a feeling that Phoenix recently spent some time at a casino playing the dollar blackjack table, won enough cash to buy a whopper junior and now considers himself a gambling expert. Just a hint most real serious gamblers do very little of their gambling in places like casinos or other legal venues and they typically operate on a much larger "honor" system. This whole situation is much closer to the back room poker game than it is a casino table so I would toss out everything u think u know about gambling, stop posting and just try and learn something about a culture you obviously know nothing about

[Anri]

He will not be remembered for being Rage he will be remembered as the man who lost a bet and never paid up. I find this to be satisfying somehow. Kuhan doesnt even need the money. Let Proteus live with the shame. We will not forget. If bets been higher pk or baseball bats. Its funnier this way. Small amount. Disgrace of not paying n all.

[protector]

People on these forums are idiots. If KuhaN was serious about making the bet and it being honored why didnt he find another neutral third party to hold the money in escrow? I have to side with Proteus here, I would not have paid a bet unless a neutral party had held the money, because there is nothing saying other person will pay or was even serious about taking the bet if they had not put their money on the table. Ever been to a casino and they let you bet without your money on the table? I think not, all the rest of this trolling and trash is just that, just a bunch of lames trying to find a reason to hate on Proteus and mess with Rage because of getting pwned by Rage. Get over it. Sheesh...

We're not in a casino here so your comparison isn't quite relevant.
He accepted a bet, there was no requirement set where the money had to be in place somewhere at any given time. It was merely suggested to put ASF as a middleman, a middleman who was never reached.
Proteus lost, he should just pay up. If he can't because he cannot afford it, he should just say so openly, I'm pretty sure we can get 100 Utopia players to each donate 1$ to KuhaN ;)

And eh, what does Rage have to do with this?
I think I speak for most people here when I say "I don't have anything against Rage, but I just don't like Proteus". Everyone here is bashing Proteus because he's Proteus, not because he's a player from Rage.

[csarmi]

Money is serious business. Next time you wanna bet, find a 3rd party that you both trust to hold the money. Simple as that.

[Evillone]

Agreed this has nothing to do with rage, just proteus. I would be curious to see if it has some impact on the top NAP negotiations next age though. Will people still want to conduct business as usual with rage if they have a leader who welches on bets? Who knows but it would be a shame for the rest of rage if they can't get naps because no one has even a sliver of trust left in proteus. Although I would guess it will still be business as usual up top.