Havoc vs AMA Round 2

[goodz]

Yep, we did Rage wrong and that justified SWEA doing us wrong. Now anyone has free reign over SWEA, just reference this and you are good to go

I guess SWEA could always give rage 15k acres and call it square!

[SnirpsneR]

Hi ASF!

[SillyRabbit]

I wouldn't object to that.

[Elldallan]

Elldallan,

Clearly there are some parallels to last age but also some differences.

Last age, AMA warred Sanc and then after the war used a lack of cf'ing them as a reason to claim invalidation on Havoc's notice in an attempt to delay fighting Havoc. Elit believed he had a clause preventing notice in such a case, but the deal and logs of the deal showed he was mistaken and there was nothing in the deal to prevent Havoc's notice. Sanc was also below AMA's war range after the first war. Havoc had a grudge against AMA due to Elit previously hitting into their hostiles and target sharing them and other reasons that Goodz has elaborated on.

Yes Elit trying to use deal as an excuse to invalidate notice was a bit shady since the deal didn't support that. Sanct was below AMA's war range yes, but I think this only matters if it was AMA that had initiated that conflict. Yes Havoc had a grudge for some minor petty reasons(except for maybe the targetsharing acusation but everybody is pointing fingers in that issue, goodz claims Elit did it first, Elit said taunt was first, taunter said taunt was first, that situation aint entirely clear). And now because of last age AMA has a much more legit reason to have a grudge with Havoc. From what I remember of those conversations Elit wasn't hitting into Havoc's hostiles, they were competing for farming the same solo explorer provs, goodz felt slighted because Elit got there first, in the one doubtful case where one of those explorers hit Havoc Elit let Havoc have multiple retals on that prov before helping himself to some of the acres.

This age, AMA warred Havoc. Unlike with Sanc, after the war, the kingdoms were quite even (probably more even then before the first war) and Havoc claimed from the start their WD was done with round two in mind. By having round 2 with AMA, Havoc also benefits from delaying fighting BB. However, unlike last age, BB has a deal with Havoc specifically worded to prevent notice in such a case. One of Flogger's greatest strengths is his ability to make complex deals that usually work out to great benefit to him. If he blatantly broke such a deal, it'd do a lot of harm to his reputation and ability to continue to make such deals in the future so I don't expect he will deal break.

Yeah they may have wd'ed with round 2 in mind, but that doesn't matter much if BB notices Havoc, then by the same logic used last age to justify AMA 2v1 Havoc would be obviously dodging which makes 2v1 ok. Whats been posted of the deal in this thread isn't by any means crystal clear, I think the clarification posted about the reason the deal was neccessary(because of Proteus previous behaviour) makes it indicate that he meant war only and not just any hostile, that Zauper missed out on that context because he haven't been around is unfortunate but doesn't really change things, I think BB and Havoc have differing opinions to what that deal actually means and since BB would be the aggressor I would guess that their interpretation is what goes.

However, it seems that Elit is very worried about Havoc beating AMA so their ally Flogger feels some obligation to try and help them out by casting doubt that he'll uphold the deal by claiming the deal has meaning different from what was obviously discussed. By casting this doubt, he can use the leverage to pressure Havoc to potentially take a deal with Elit/him or behave in ways that are less ideal strategically to help out Elit such as rushing the hostile through fort and such things to try and give Elit an advantage.

I wouldn't particularly have a round 2 either judging by their kd pages and things posted in here.
As I said I think BB has a different interpretation of what that deal actually says and would love to vulture Havoc for some basically free acres and AMA would love to 2v1 Havoc because of past events. I guess time will tell wether it's all just shadowplay or something serious will happen from it, personally I think Havoc deserves to get ****played but thats just my opinion..

My guess is that Flogger will keep his word but will successfully pressure Havoc into less than ideal strategical moves to allow AMA to have a good chance in the fight with Havoc. It will be interesting to see how the AMA vs Havoc fight ends.

Maybe, maybe not, Only time will tell I guess :)

[goodz]

Yes Elit trying to use deal as an excuse to invalidate notice was a bit shady since the deal didn't support that. Sanct was below AMA's war range yes, but I think this only matters if it was AMA that had initiated that conflict. Yes Havoc had a grudge for some minor petty reasons(except for maybe the targetsharing acusation but everybody is pointing fingers in that issue, goodz claims Elit did it first, Elit said taunt was first, taunter said taunt was first, that situation aint entirely clear). And now because of last age AMA has a much more legit reason to have a grudge with Havoc. From what I remember of those conversations Elit wasn't hitting into Havoc's hostiles, they were competing for farming the same solo explorer provs, goodz felt slighted because Elit got there first, in the one doubtful case where one of those explorers hit Havoc Elit let Havoc have multiple retals on that prov before helping himself to some of the acres.

Yeah they may have wd'ed with round 2 in mind, but that doesn't matter much if BB notices Havoc, then by the same logic used last age to justify AMA 2v1 Havoc would be obviously dodging which makes 2v1 ok. Whats been posted of the deal in this thread isn't by any means crystal clear, I think the clarification posted about the reason the deal was neccessary(because of Proteus previous behaviour) makes it indicate that he meant war only and not just any hostile, that Zauper missed out on that context because he haven't been around is unfortunate but doesn't really change things, I think BB and Havoc have differing opinions to what that deal actually means and since BB would be the aggressor I would guess that their interpretation is what goes.


I wouldn't particularly have a round 2 either judging by their kd pages and things posted in here.
As I said I think BB has a different interpretation of what that deal actually says and would love to vulture Havoc for some basically free acres and AMA would love to 2v1 Havoc because of past events. I guess time will tell wether it's all just shadowplay or something serious will happen from it, personally I think Havoc deserves to get ****played but thats just my opinion..

Maybe, maybe not, Only time will tell I guess :)

The first public posting of the target share was elit. It was quite clear the events were all time stamped.

The 1 solo explorer prov was exchanging hits with us and elit could not break it army home but instead retaliated it when it hit us.

The other solo explorer prov was a KD with a few big provinces who were hitting us, it was hostile/hostile for relations. We were nsing the prov so it could be broken, it then messaged elit and they agreed upon a time for it to release so he could farm its land.

I do think the fact that sanctuary was 40% smaller or so would have some impact when comparing two kingdoms of identical size for the authenticity of the hostile.

Sanctuary did steal gold from a province with 0 tpa, but we had just had gold stolen from a province with 0tpa from their target share. AMA then initiated the conflict by starting the hits. Depending on how you define a hostile :P I also did offer to have htis between them and sanctuary evened out for 0 loss, and once that was done restart notice. Elit countered that by demanding a 1 week notice and a large number of acres from sanctuary I thought it was 30k but it may have been 20k. I told him that was obviously not going to happen and if he wanted to do further diplo or we would end up waving him at time of original notice expiring. He declined to do further diplo.

Finally AMA denied my hostile prior to sanc touching them stating that I could not notice them until they REcfed sanc.

Thats my final post on that course of events for today, if you want more information its all available in previous threads.

[Elldallan]

The first public posting of the target share was elit. It was quite clear the events were all time stamped.

Public posting as in posted on this forum yes, but if I recall correctly(and I might not) the taunt was sent the same hour and since ingame events are only timestamped by the hour they happened it's hard to prove or disprove. I'm not trying to discredit your claim, it has as much chance of being correct as the counterclaim afaik.

[Drug]

Is it me or goodz = broken record?

[goodz]

Public posting as in posted on this forum yes, but if I recall correctly(and I might not) the taunt was sent the same hour and since ingame events are only timestamped by the hour they happened it's hard to prove or disprove. I'm not trying to discredit your claim, it has as much chance of being correct as the counterclaim afaik.

2.x hours later :D

Drug people post about the same things over and over, utopia is a broken game! :) If you read other forum sections i post about all kinds of other useless things.

I just have nothing better to do since im playing in a ghetto but still have a ton of free time during the work day to spam le forum.

[Conclave]

i dunno, but kuhan could buy a copy of that record if ppl ever would pay up dat 20bux..

[mbab]

Stay on topic: 'Soul Hunter on vacation in croatia'!!

[Soul_Hunter]

One more day :D

[Ezzerland]

Why would there be a 2 on 1? Are you saying that you won't fight us 1v1? We are forced to accept a CF otherwise there will be a GB? Is this the state of utopia? :P

Also, we were open to a CF deal if it included pushing back BB as well so we could have time to prepare for a fair conflict 1v1 with BB. flogger wouldn't yield, so there is no CF deal with you guys either. If you want a deal with us, make flogger deal.

I got to this point in the thread and realized, current havoc players (read: Godly) are clueless.

The only drama so far has been the threat of a GB for a legitimate wave that we want to make. Dodge? Like when BB dodged us by having you guys notice us?

We are entitled to pursue the best possible conflict for us. Right now, our best possible conflict is AMA. If we get an extension with BB, we might be willing to fight them. I don't know how this is difficult to understand. This isn't a boxing match where fights are preassigned. If we don't have a CF with you, you are a target. If you want a CF with us, you gotta deal. It's just that simple.

And then I read this post. And just stopped reading after. I can't be bothered to read 9 more pages of preemptive whining from a clueless player.

[Elit]

Forgive Godly, he don't have any idea about Havoc history from last age.

[Shai]

Isn't it funny that it seems like people knew that since even before the thread was made? Would that mean BB will more likely hostile Havoc regardless if Havoc hostiles AMA?

What happens if they do...will we finally see anti-ABS flags fly? Or will BB just be there to power play and prove no difference between normal KDs and ABS KDs?

This situation have happened several times in the past DonJuan and if its one thing we've learned from history: its that Anti-Abs play dirtier and powerplay more then Absalom does.

Thats why all the Anti-Absalom alliance eventually die off, and Absalom lives on. Basic utopian history.

Now I like Flogger alot, but I do remember age 7 quite well and the 200 or so avian multis that he ran to suicide my kingdom Holy Reign trying to kill us all so he would eventually get Chais province killed. So its not like Beastblood is lead by gentlemen with spotless records. Doubling Havoc would be just another notch in the belt :)

[Shai]

As for the conflict: Havoc cant fight BB or they lose the cow to BBs two. They will do whatever they can to dodge BB. Like everyone else would do being in the same situation. It has nothing to do with bravery or fear. Its strategy and about being smart or dumb.

Quesion is just, how will Havoc be able to dodge BB until they can get another cow on at least 16k up there? And how far will BB go to actually get to Havoc?

Not thats the interesting part :)