What would it take?

[faegan]

Perhaps the most simple way to explain whoring:

Troops-in-Troops-out the entire age, while making safe hits so you won't need to keep high defense and thus can keep decent economy going and thus get high science.

Wars aren't even needed as CR proved two ages ago.

[Zauper]

These days, in order to crown, in a 13 week age, you need to attack (or gain via WW bonus or LL) for about 120k acres. That's an average of 1318 acres/day, or a netgain of 26 acres per hit (x2/day) with 25 provs hitting.

To put that in perspective, you start on 10k acres, in a 13 week age, you gain about 11k acres via daily 5 acres, and you have about 110k pool. A little less than half of your total acreage has to be gained via conflict. Last age ran into what, like Yr15 no? That would be +3 weeks; in order to beat BB you would have needed to attack for 128k acres. In order to beat AMA (and thus, what BB needed to crown), you would have needed to attack for 100k acres.

If you can take 120k acres without war, great. Sometimes it takes wars -- one or multiple. (CR two ages ago had a war and a major conflict for #1; BB last age didn't really, it would be a more representative example). In some past ages, there had been more wars. If there are more wars, the big kds probably need to net take more via conflict, as wars between top kds will add more acres to the game at the top.

But yes, essentially whoring requires warring level activity for troops in/out if you want to optimize. That's part of why one of the best ways to make more people able to whore is to reduce the need to hit twice daily.

[StratOcastle]

One big problem I see traveling is the inability for good players to find each other. If we look at the news thread with wars being promoted we can see the kingdoms that could use a boost. This is a bit like scratching the surface.

Mechanically, I would rough out a number, say the top 50 power charts should be 25 province kingdoms. I have to mince words so players understand I indeed appreciate the value of quality. These things require a delicate touch because some of my favorite kingdoms are sub 50 with charming culture: Empyreans, The Wishmasters etc.

Perhaps we could model an animal shelter since I have no knowledge of orphanages. I'd like to see some efforts made to find the strays and get them homes with similar activity. Present these players with the information they need to get into the swing of things and let them know they are wanted. Some I would venture feel unworthy of the kingdoms they might want to join.

A solution could be an interim kingdom sponsored in some loose alliance with top kingdoms. This would simply be schooling kingdoms if top players needing a break would take part in teaching. You might already do this but it'd be nice to see an expansion to fill out the top 50.

[American Badass]

One thing we are forgetting is whoring takes a lot of time leadership wise. MW use to always get to rank 10-15 in land/nw without using any explore pool in an age we won 6 wars. I definitely think winning kingdoms should get both land and honor and perhaps increase both bonuses to 15-20% bonuses. As fake wars now are non existent, the end goal of whoring/warring needs to be the same, eg maybe increase BPA won as well so war or not, everyone kind of grows at the same pace. Also I agree with topsy, remove explore constraints in eowcf and make the acres come in twice as quick or something.

[KuhaN]

I really like this thread.

Palem is the man.

[Sheister]

Was it settled then? Palem is a man?

[StratOcastle]

Was it settled then? Palem is a man?

No, that's just the way you grant respect. Some guy use to be Palem but TS killed him and played as monarch when I was in HRS. She's wearing his faery wings as we speak.

[Kestrel038]

Okay, opinion of an average ghetto warring kingdom..

1. We are 20 provs, therefore whoring is pointless. We cannot find enough players that aren't already getting snapped up by the larger kingdoms. I accept the game is here to make money.. and the 20-25 prov thing forms part of that income with purchased invites, name changes etc.. but for your average ghetto, the kind who gain 1-2 players per age and then lose 2 or 3 at the new age, it effectively limits them to 20.. and limits any whoring attempt.

(The following points apply if we were able to hit 23-25 provs)

2. We are a "sometimes active" ghetto type kingdom (as previously mentioned). We can possibly muster a 90-95% showing for war with 24 hours notice IF we're lucky.. And as we know, the pew-pews, the amas and the simians of this world are like as not able to muster 100% attendance within 15 minutes.. I accept that it's the difference between dedication and casual play, and I'm not saying that the advantage of organisation should be removed in any way.. but to give the defender a better chance to rally forces, (especially with the multi-kd pressure tactics sometimes used), perhaps another stance.. "Siege".. limited to 48 hours.. only usable when an enemy kingdom is hostile or greater.. provides gains penalty to the attackers similar to fortified (either sliding in over 12 hours or instant), also provides enemy casualties penalty similar to emerald dragon (to signify the higher losses attacking a fortified position).. penalties for the defenders.. decreased food production (most of the farms are outside the city walls).. higher plague contagion and lower cure rate (disease in a city etc). at the end of the 48 hours, the defenders have only 2 options.. option 1.. rally forth and declare war.. or option 2.. surrender to the invaders. this gives a 12 hour window for hits by the attackers before a mutual 48 CF is automatically put in place. (siege should also give fortified status against non-hostile kingdoms).

3. as above, kingdoms newer to the whoring game.. without the wealth of experience in running retal wars and raze wars and all the rest of it, getting a NAP with the big guys isn't much of a comfort. Any of them could break their NAP at any point.. with or without warning, and there wouldn't be much the inexperienced kingdom could do about it. So, allow NAP's to have a minimum term without the possibility of breaking them.. when proposing a CF to a kingdom, allow the choice of 3 months, 1 year or 3 year for example.. at which point the nap is automatically cancelled and the kingdoms may renegotiate a new treaty if they wish.. This does not prevent age long naps that the big guys might want to keep.. but it does give the smaller guys a little security and at least a forewarning of when they may be vulnerable to bottomfeeders again. It will also encourage diplomacy with kingdoms keeping an eye on treaty expiry dates and communicating with their counterparts to hammer out new deals etc,

4. I know Bishop... you hate me for this one.. but I have to say it.. especially as, with more kingdoms whoring.. the guys at the bottom of the pile are only going to suffer more.. fix the bottomfeed formula.. I know.. the forumla doesn't need fixing.. but it DOES need capping. 8 mill kingdom - 180k nw prov, hits sub 2 mill kingdom 120k nw prov and gains approx 6% of target acres.. now I know that IF someone in our kingdom could muster enough offence to break a 140% nw prov they WOULD get 6-7% of target acres which would be much more.. but it's unlikely that many in a "ghetto" kingdom will be running those kind of numbers or have the backup to do so.. so why not cap the out of nw range hits to force kingdoms to look closer to their own size.. cap ALL gains at the 50%/200% mark.. make the 2 mill ghettos safe from the 5-10 mill whores (and vice versa - no mega topfeeds either) and allow them to grow without being grazed upon daily.. let them build up their t/ms and banks without some 150%nw prov in a 400% nw kingdom walking in and just feeding for acres or resources..

And finally, to address another point someone made re science points for early stage whores etc.. perhaps look at modifying the sci formula for size.. i.e. if 100bpa at 1000 acres gave a 10% bonus to sci, then at 2000 acres, you would need 110bpa for the same 10%?

[Palem]

No, that's just the way you grant respect. Some guy use to be Palem but TS killed him and played as monarch when I was in HRS. She's wearing his faery wings as we speak.

1. We are 20 provs, therefore whoring is pointless. We cannot find enough players that aren't already getting snapped up by the larger kingdoms. I accept the game is here to make money.. and the 20-25 prov thing forms part of that income with purchased invites, name changes etc.. but for your average ghetto, the kind who gain 1-2 players per age and then lose 2 or 3 at the new age, it effectively limits them to 20.. and limits any whoring attempt.

Why does it make it pointless? Yes, you won't be able to crown, I'll definitely give you that, but it opens up a wealth of goals for your kd to aim for and you don't even need to give up warring. It would just be like a side objective.

Let's put aside all of the super elitism that tends to follow the top and such. Wouldn't it be at least a little cool to finish on top of your island? Or finish as the largest 20 prov kd in the game (which is what most kds are)? You don't HAVE to crown to be proud of your accomplishments. There is no amount of naysaying that could make me not feel proud of TFC's #6/5 finish, EVEN IF we didn't crown.


and to your #3, that's just a matter of learning how to use diplomacy. Your CF deals need to have terms and then they can't just break them whenever they want.

[Kestrel038]

Why does it make it pointless? Yes, you won't be able to crown, I'll definitely give you that, but it opens up a wealth of goals for your kd to aim for and you don't even need to give up warring. It would just be like a side objective.

Let's put aside all of the super elitism that tends to follow the top and such. Wouldn't it be at least a little cool to finish on top of your island? Or finish as the largest 20 prov kd in the game (which is what most kds are)? You don't HAVE to crown to be proud of your accomplishments. There is no amount of naysaying that could make me not feel proud of TFC's #6/5 finish, EVEN IF we didn't crown.


and to your #3, that's just a matter of learning how to use diplomacy. Your CF deals need to have terms and then they can't just break them whenever they want.

if you land on an island full of ghettos perhaps you could look at it that way. But I've rarely seen it happen.

And we have been exactly where you say.. top 20 prov kingdom in the game.. we hit #11 or something on the size charts at one point (finished 20th).. had no realistic war targets, and were fed on by the top 10 (bear in mind that most of the top 30 would have outgunned us at war with 5 extra attackers). being 20 provs and being anywhere in nw range of the "established" kingdoms and you're going to get fed on.

And as for diplomacy, who exactly is going to enforce it when one of the bigger kingdoms decides to just ignore whatever terms they had?? who will do anything other than say "stupid ghetto nubs.. get back where you belong" etc etc..

[Squee311]

Okay, opinion of an average ghetto warring kingdom..


4. I know Bishop... you hate me for this one.. but I have to say it.. especially as, with more kingdoms whoring.. the guys at the bottom of the pile are only going to suffer more.. fix the bottomfeed formula.. I know.. the forumla doesn't need fixing.. but it DOES need capping. 8 mill kingdom - 180k nw prov, hits sub 2 mill kingdom 120k nw prov and gains approx 6% of target acres.. now I know that IF someone in our kingdom could muster enough offence to break a 140% nw prov they WOULD get 6-7% of target acres which would be much more.. but it's unlikely that many in a "ghetto" kingdom will be running those kind of numbers or have the backup to do so.. so why not cap the out of nw range hits to force kingdoms to look closer to their own size.. cap ALL gains at the 50%/200% mark.. make the 2 mill ghettos safe from the 5-10 mill whores (and vice versa - no mega topfeeds either) and allow them to grow without being grazed upon daily.. let them build up their t/ms and banks without some 150%nw prov in a 400% nw kingdom walking in and just feeding for acres or resources..

What this suggestion actually does and what you think is does are two different things entirely. Top feeding is already a way better way to gain land. All it does is make their safer take less land they are still making that same hit regardless of the change. You know why? Its safe. There is enough tools and posts out there from top notch players that say "run offense" or "defense makes you a target" If you are a ghetto and haven't read these or convinced your kingdom mates to take a look because you think you are better than say Godly, Zauper, Maxi, flogger or anyone else what has played this game forever there in lies your problem. You'd never be able to whore if you aren't running the numbers you also more than likely fail at 50% of your wars an age since you aren't running the number to retal a bottom feed hit yo ualso are not runnign the numbers to double-quad tap someone in war either.

This is another example of thinking from a player who has never experienced whoring.

[Kestrel038]

What this suggestion actually does and what you think is does are two different things entirely. Top feeding is already a way better way to gain land. All it does is make their safer take less land they are still making that same hit regardless of the change. You know why? Its safe. There is enough tools and posts out there from top notch players that say "run offense" or "defense makes you a target" If you are a ghetto and haven't read these or convinced your kingdom mates to take a look because you think you are better than say Godly, Zauper, Maxi, flogger or anyone else what has played this game forever there in lies your problem. You'd never be able to whore if you aren't running the numbers you also more than likely fail at 50% of your wars an age since you aren't running the number to retal a bottom feed hit yo ualso are not runnign the numbers to double-quad tap someone in war either.

This is another example of thinking from a player who has never experienced whoring.

And I have never argued otherwise. My original post quite clearly stated the opinion of an "average warring ghetto kingdom". I've already pointed out the disadvantages for such kingdoms. Your answer is, albeit politely worded, exactly what I said it would be "you're a nub.. you obviously haven't got a clue".. well congratulations Squee.. you just proved the EXACT point I was making.. ghetto's are ghettos.. you will never get them whoring because it's not worth the effort and they'll get farmed by a kingdom 4-5 times their size every time they get anywhere..

go on about numbers all you want, but that does not take away from any of my points.

What really gets me is why all the established players are so against cutting off gains completely at 50% nw?? why would that be such a major penalty for the crown hunters?? they would still have over a third of the server to feed upon.. why do they hang on so desperately to the ability to hit into 1 mill 20 prov ghettos??? and why is everyone so set against giving the ghettos some breathing room from the crown hunters??

You asked what it would take for our kingdom to try whoring.. well I've told you.. you may disagree, but those are still the kind of changes that would be needed to make ours try it.

[Maximouse]

Kestrel, regarding the diplo you claim the top does. I think your mistaken there. KD's in the top have every reason to stick to their deals. Bad PR that comes from those that delabreak is more damaging long term then the short term gains they might be able to take. Just make sure you confirm a CF deal ingame. Write down the exact deal and ask the opponents monarch to confirm.
Main problem for KD's like your isnt diplo though. Its simple numbers. The moment you dont have enough offence to retal the few KD's in the top is the moment they will try to feed of you.
As I explained to about 30 KD's by now in the last 2 ages CR whored, offence is not only your best defense, but in fact, your ONLY defense against those top KD's.
Not having offence to retal is what puts you in the "victims spot". Nothing else. And not having offence is a simle strategy choice. Huge defense is only good if you cant be broken. And the only way to accomplish that is if your on top of the foodchain.

[Maximouse]

What really gets me is why all the established players are so against cutting off gains completely at 50% nw?? why would that be such a major penalty for the crown hunters?? they would still have over a third of the server to feed upon.. why do they hang on so desperately to the ability to hit into 1 mill 20 prov ghettos??? and why is everyone so set against giving the ghettos some breathing room from the crown hunters??

Your suggestion limits the targets for my KD to the top 8 of the charts. Utopia is still a teamgame. Why should my team get a huge penalty cause we do well? What your suggesting in a tax on succes. Not to mention it would mean you destroy growth potential for the biggest KD and artificialy force the top to stay together.
Would be crazy if you consider that if 1 of the big KD's comes oow with a chained down prov, they couldnt even attack to grow again cause they could only hit into 1 of the other top KD's....

There are so many flaws in that suggestion I am quite sure the mods wont even consider it.

[Maximouse]

There is however a much easier way to deal with it other then cutting gains completely against a KD 50% of your NW. There is already a system in place called KingdomNetWorthRelatedGains. (knwrg) If you add a simple mentality change to that and you have plenty ways to deal with top KD's. Grow as a KD, always have offence. If you use those 2 tips, together with knwrg a smaller KD has plenty ways to defend against the bigger KD's.