Proposal to end he Awar

[Mithras]

Strictly speaking, that is not a fact. BB made proposals of things that were possible but were not accepted but emeriti COULD have done them. So no, not a fact.

The offers presented by BB was intentionaly unreasonable since the dealbreak was already decided on. No action from Emeriti would have changed that.

[citadela01]

If you did read the logs then you would have seen that Emeriti councilmembers advised Bour to not attack BB as well.

But since Bour doesn't do just as Emeriti says he chose for himself.

Thats some blind spot you have there.
Only Zauper was against it, Emeriti brought the topic up, sugested he raze them, and even sugested to give them 3 hours max to respond.
He obeyed on all counts.

Your arguments are rubish.

[Pale]

The largest penalty offered to Emeriti that I saw was them dropping out of the crown race. Is it unreasonable to ask Emeriti to do so after sending bour in, which changed the landscape of the top fight? Telling Bour to hit into eowcf is WRONG. Gaining major advantages over your main competition because of it is CHEATING. You wouldn’t have been having a theoretical discussion about the merits of hitting into eowcf yourselves if you didn’t know it would hurt your opponent who you were obviously worried about. Based on this logic, is it unreasonable to ask you to drop out after cheating?

[Mithras]

Thats some blind spot you have there.
Only Zauper was against it, Emeriti brought the topic up, sugested he raze them, and even sugested to give them 3 hours max to respond.
He obeyed on all counts.

Your arguments are rubish.

Emeriti didn't bring anything up. It's a kd name and I can assure you it has no voice to bring up anything i our LS chan. Bour is the person that brings the issue with his lack of cf with BB to the table. Not anyone from Emeriti. THen some of Emeritis LS offer bad advise and others offer better advise.

[Band of Horses]

I feel like it is one emeriti member after another that comes in and makes them all look like asses.

Step 1: Admit fault (The hand was in the cookie jar so just say it)
Step 2: Heartfelt apology (I've linked this before, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...gies-The-Rules)
Step 3: Remove self from race
Step 4: Stop being asses

[Mithras]

The largest penalty offered to Emeriti that I saw was them dropping out of the crown race. Is it unreasonable to ask Emeriti to do so after sending bour in, which changed the landscape of the top fight? Telling Bour to hit into eowcf is WRONG. Gaining major advantages over your main competition because of it is CHEATING. You wouldn’t have been having a theoretical discussion about the merits of hitting into eowcf yourselves if you didn’t know it would hurt your opponent who you were obviously worried about. Based on this logic, is it unreasonable to ask you to drop out after cheating?

If you think that we are cheating in any way you should report us right away. We will cooperate fully with Bishop to get that matter sorted.

[Mithras]

I feel like it is one emeriti member after another that comes in and makes them all look like asses.

Step 1: Admit fault (The hand was in the cookie jar so just say it)
Step 2: Heartfelt apology (I've linked this before, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...gies-The-Rules)
Step 3: Remove self from race
Step 4: Stop being asses

Step 1: done
Step 2: done
Step 3: we have already told involved parties that we are ok with that but they demand more
Step 4: done

[citadela01]

Emeriti didn't bring anything up. It's a kd name and I can assure you it has no voice to bring up anything i our LS chan. Bour is the person that brings the issue with his lack of cf with BB to the table. Not anyone from Emeriti. THen some of Emeritis LS offer bad advise and others offer better advise.

Bs ... jdorje brought it up and others plaged along ...

We ... keep repeating your mantra

[Pale]

Cheating is beyond game mechanics in utopia. You broke the code of "fair play" that you seem to hold so tightly to and even believe that you are entitled to. To gain an unfair advantage is, by definition, cheating.

[Mithras]

Cheating is beyond game mechanics in utopia. You broke the code of "fair play" that you seem to hold so tightly to and even believe that you are entitled to. To gain an unfair advantage is, by definition, cheating.

Ah, you mean such as dealbreaking, hitting into a war, teaming up 2 on 1, intentionaly accepting compensation for cf with the intent to dealbreak and demanding farm wars from opponents?

[Pale]

Ah, you mean such as dealbreaking, hitting into a war, teaming up 2 on 1, intentionaly accepting compensation for cf with the intent to dealbreak and demanding farm wars from opponents?

Huge difference between reparations and doing so without provocation. Yours is the latter.

[Darkz Azn]

Didn't imply you cheated, just stated you ****play ... get oddplayed #oddplay

[TheOne]

there's alot of posts talking about the 'logs'. i'm going to paste the chat logs from emeriti's council channel.. and i advise everyone to just re-read the logs WITHOUT any prior assumptions.

my comments are in italics


jdorje 5:59 PM what total size will they be?

leshrak 5:59 PM 2.2, 2.1, 1.7
it's only 15k solds per prov
they released most of their core military
1 soldier/acre for the whole kd
cheap

jdorje 6:09 PM
soooo
back to the idea of waving them right now
we dont like this idea still?
this implies that as a whole, emeriti council has previously discussed about waving bb into their eowcf, and at least majority of them disagrees with the idea

leshrak 6:10 PM
i dunno
flogger offered yr2 cf
not yr6
emeriti feels a yr2 cf benefits bb more than emeriti.

cerberusv6.66 6:14 PM
Waving right now? I don't mind the idea so much.
one of the leadership members stated he didnt mind emeriti waving into bb's eowcf

zauper 6:15 PM
I don't love waving into eow?
Is it the example you want to set for acceptable play?I don't...
another leadership member disagrees with waving into eowcf

leshrak 6:16 PM
don't sit on 10 dpa in eowcf?

jdorje 6:17 PM
not really the example we want to set for acceptable play, no
another leadership member #2 disagrees with waving into eowcf

leshrak 6:17 PM
they could be razed by 400a provs right now

jdorje 6:17 PM
if he's going to farm bour next
it's bour that should be razing them
jdorje mentioned the point that if anyone should be razing/hitting bb, it should be bour. this is comparing betwee emeriti waving or bour razing.. and feels that if any hits should be done.. it should bour doing it

leshrak 6:17 PM
slaps bour around a bit with a large trout
attracts the attention of bour. does this mean leshrak feels bour should raze? or just drawing the attention of bour?

cerberusv6.66 6:18 PM
eh
not sure how I feel about that

jdorje 6:19 PM
if we cf them, bour is dead
and that is bad for us
so if i were bour i'd go get the cf now
with threats of postwar hitting if they refuse
suggestion on how bour should prevent himself from getting farmed

cerberusv6.66 6:20 PM
true

cerberusv6.66 7:18 PM
so eh
are we done planning?
as in, we didn't?

jdorje 7:26 PM
do we raze stables to pump?
for almost a 3 day pump?

cerberusv6.66
stables

cerberusv6.66 7:33 PM
EH
okay
let's think aboutthis. Will we want them for a fight?
we'll have like 1.5k ospecs or something

jdorje 7:34 PM
obviously we'd like them

cerberusv6.66 7:34 PM
so 25% offensive increase for that
and 16% increase for our elites

jdorje 7:34 PM
are they better than 10% more forts for a fight PLUS ~45 hours of banks?
do we want homes for this pump?
i'm guessing we do

cerberusv6.66 7:34 PM
I think we lose them, and I think we want homes
if we're going to fight, we need to go all in on the preparation
before, wehn it looked like it was just one big prov, it looked a lot less scary
things as they stand look very loseable for us
so yeah, we need to do as much as possible. I' not sure what is optimal for said preparation though
but I don't think we want stables while we're preparing

past few sentences were all discussing about the possible conflict

bour 7:41 PM
msged BB ingame
Off. Points 66,646

cerberusv6.66 7:42 PM
gonna get that cf?

bour 7:42 PM
will try to get it

cerberusv6.66 7:42 PM
give them at most 3 hours to respond
start killing if they don't answer or try to delay
imo
strongest advocate of advising bour to raze into bb's eowcf

bour 7:44 PM
the guy has 12k defense
lol


--

Different people would view the logs differently. To each his own.

First thing I asked was how high ranking is cerberusv in emeriti's leadership, and it was made clear that he's definitely a tier below leshrak/jdorje/asf. He was the strongest advocate of advising bour to raze into eowcf. but.. should a non top 3 council member's views be taken strongly into consideration?

personally, i dont fault leshrak/jdorje that much. the logs didnt really strike me as them encouraging bour to raze into eowcf.... most others would see it differently from me. i guess this is the main reason why people believe emeriti should be punished.. their main leaders encouraging bour to raze into bb eowcf.. if i had seen logs of either of them explicitly saying 'bour go raze into bb', i would have definitely taken a side in this awar.

I agree with Godly on his stance of how he sees the logs.. council members discussing a certain gameplay/strategy.. and such discussions always occurs.. (unless the kingdom is running a dictatorship).. but it is poor form for emeriti's main leaders to not openly declare that bour should not raze into eowcf.

BB has the right to be upset that emeriti didnt openly acknowledge that they knew who BO:UR kd was.. and was hiding who BO:UR was. regarding all the emeriti willing to give BB compensation, and what BB demanded for compensation.. i dont know what was really offered/requested.. emeriti did have an edge in CF negotiations when they knew that BB was getting slowed down by bour.. i.e being able to make a longer CF

As flogger has mentioned, I have seen the logs in Bb's leadership channel. and I can affirm that BB was f***ing mad that the razes came in. that someone didnt respect their eowcf. BB didnt really care about crowning, and didnt care about their potential conflict with emeriti... and was willing to CF emeriti (to a certain date where it's strategically worse for BB's clerics vs Emeriti's sages) just to razekill bo:ur. they even wanted emeriti to razekill bo:ur together with them... all these was before BB found out it was bour who actually razed. there are some claims that flogger wanted to GB emeriti for a long time (prior to this age), but those are untrue.

--

with everything being said. emeriti has the best roster out there. and have very good warring abilities with top tier leaders. they really shouldnt be that afraid if bour get farmed etc. they have enough skill/activity to take on any kingdom 1v1.. why put your kingdom in a possible 'shady' spot when you can outright own your competition 1v1? so what if bour really gets 'farmed' by BB. should have openly declared that you dont approve of bour razing into eowcf (like what Godly has mentioned)

[Mithras]

Ty CJ

I got a bit carried away. Thread was in bad need of some objectivity.

[13nesta13]

cerberusv6.66 6:14 PM
Waving right now? I don't mind the idea so much.
one of the leadership members stated he didnt mind emeriti waving into bb's eowcf

zauper 6:15 PM
I don't love waving into eow?
Is it the example you want to set for acceptable play?I don't...
another leadership member disagrees with waving into eowcf

leshrak 6:16 PM
don't sit on 10 dpa in eowcf?

jdorje 6:17 PM
not really the example we want to set for acceptable play, no
another leadership member #2 disagrees with waving into eowcf

leshrak 6:17 PM
they could be razed by 400a provs right now

jdorje 6:17 PM
if he's going to farm bour next
it's bour that should be razing them
jdorje mentioned the point that if anyone should be razing/hitting bb, it should be bour. this is comparing betwee emeriti waving or bour razing.. and feels that if any hits should be done.. it should bour doing it

personally, i dont fault leshrak/jdorje that much. the logs didnt really strike me as them encouraging bour to raze into eowcf.... most others would see it differently from me. i guess this is the main reason why people believe emeriti should be punished.. their main leaders encouraging bour to raze into bb eowcf.. if i had seen logs of either of them explicitly saying 'bour go raze into bb', i would have definitely taken a side in this awar.

Cerberus starts by saying he doesnt mind Emeriti waving BB in its EOWCF.

zauper made a negative response to the idea by saying its not sporting play and not a good precedent to set.

Leshrak's response, rather than affirming zauper's contribution, was to suggest otherwise, that "BB deserved to be waved into eowcf if they eventually chose to do that, since its BB's fault that they are sitting on 10 dpa in eowcf".
thats my inference, correct me if i'm wrong.

jdorje admittted its not a good precedent for sporting play either (emeriti waving into eowcf), would have been fine if he left it at that. ie, discouraging Emeriti waving into eowcf.
Instead, he immediately followed up with the comment that if anyone should be harming BB in its eowcf prep on 10 dpa, between emeriti getting their own hands dirty and its ally bour, it should be their ally.

You made a lot of nice inferences in italics, but it astounds me you can fail to infer the above 2 and say leshrak and jdorje didn't really influence the final decision by bour to raze. You cant just make inferences 1 sentence by 1 sentence in a vacuum. It's the whole context of the group conversation and a second sentence following right after the first carries more inferences than what you just inferred by dissecting line by line.