Proposal to end he Awar

[protector]

I said everyone will try to get an edge any way they could and the only limit to that is a persons character and moral. Whether human beats dwarf is completely irrelevant since you chose to dealbreak instead of just beating us fair. If you at that point thought you would beat us fairly and easely as you try to claim now I'm quite amazed you didn't do just that. Would have spared alot of ppl alot of effort. But that was what your morale and your character would allow you to do to get an edge. I would not have done the same.

Of course it's relevant. Its relevant because it plays a huge factor in a fight.
If you still do not understand why this whole situation occurred as it did, you're mentally retarded.

And just to display how much you suck at reading:

If you at that point thought you would beat us fairly and easely as you try to claim now I'm quite amazed you didn't do just that.

And one last, just because I can:

I would not have done the same.

Because you wouldn't have to. We don't ask our friends/ex players to raze others into eowcf.

[MyNameIsMatija]

You do need to read the logs since you are accusing emerit of changing agreed deals and you think that we agreed to give Simians a prov crown. A simple read through the logs will prove that neither actualy happened and we can put a silly discussion to bed.

I can totally believe you when you say you didn't agree to give anyone anything.

[Pale]

... you chose to dealbreak instead of just beating us fair. If you at that point thought you would beat us fairly and easely as you try to claim now I'm quite amazed you didn't do just that. Would have spared alot of ppl alot of effort. But that was what your morale and your character would allow you to do to get an edge. I would not have done the same.

You expect someone to fight fair when you have already crossed the line and sent bour into eowcf (logs prove it), making it impossible to be a fair fight now? You even claiming that a fair fight could exist after that stunt pulled by your leadership is comical.

[citadela01]

Bour is not a dog that sits and high fives on command. Neither is he trained in attacking other ppls opponents on command. He does however tend to attack his own opponents in a game enviroment. When he does so he does not violate agreed CF:s and he actively tries to keeps his fights 1 vs 1.

We all read the logs

[13nesta13]

I was barely logging on to make sure that my prov didn't starve at that point. I wasn't intentionally stalling, I wasn't participating much in leadership discussions, and I wasn't going onto IRC. I told my KD that I was unable to dedicate the time then to doing the monarchy things that needed to be done, but I didn't want to just up and abandon my prov in the middle of an age, and I needed others to step in. This game isn't worth losing a job/house/wife over. The discussions ASF referred to happened in my absence, and were not intentionally delayed in being transmitted to you; hence my apology to you in the logs.

Given that our whole CF discussion to that point was predicated on one or both of us dodging simians, when someone finally SMSed me to say they were going to give you notice and wanted to make sure we hadn't agreed to a deal, I didn't think giving you notice 26h earlier than you were asking for (yr5) would have really been a big issue for you.

I confirmed our timeline with Mithras, who was the main person handling discussions around this time. Nobody made simians draft up, and in fact they had plenty of time and advance warning (a week) that we were not going to fight them at our cf expiration. We were just over half their size and fighting them at that point would have been a complete farm-out; had it gone to war, it would have been much worse than the 30k acres that we took from Chrystal or the 50k BB took from Divinity later in the age. We asked Simians for a CF extension a week in advance because of that size difference. At that time, Mithras told Anri if he wouldn't agree to CF us, we'd have to find a way to dodge the fight.

You're apologising for your stalling due to RL issues, but the multiple responses by your other council members are suggesting otherwise. It gets hard to decipher which is true. They were happy to proceed with the knowledge that we were acting based on a minimum yr 5 deal while your side all along was going to plan and play it like a blank 72h deal.

I've shown you how much difference 26 hours extra would have made, by simple mathematics, and I was being conservative in multiplying the science and bank mods. Thats 93 million worth of gold prep and with that we wouldnt even be incapable of complete funding the 2nd drake. We also wouldnt have been forced to give you the button because we were gold starved. So does that make a big impact on the fight? Now you tell me.
After you sent the notice I even asked you to shift it back at least 24 hours, both you and Mithras, and you both went on ignore mode again. So your argument that 26h is no big deal doesnt hold weight at all.

[23:12] <NesTa13> i asked for mithras to shift it back to as if it was served on 1st jan y5 or at least 24h more
[23:12] <NesTa13> he didnt give me an answer, or maybe im supposed to assume silence means objection?
[23:13] <NesTa13> i've also got 5 crushed TMs that cant do much, and if i was given ample notice that i would have to get busy in y5 i would have pooled them much earlier
[23:14] <NesTa13> we were 100m lower stocked than you guys 22h ago
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[23:20] leshrak is ~leshrak@uto-58AB0291.tampfl.fios.verizon.net * michael
[23:20] leshrak is identified for this nick
[23:20] leshrak on #absalom #tactics @#pewpew &#emeriti #strategy @#Pyromaniacs #officialjerks @#Beastblood @#cromulent ~#teamlol
[23:20] leshrak using fry.us.utonet.org UtoNet -- I did do the nasty in the past-y.
[23:20] leshrak has been idle 15mins 49secs, signed on Wed Feb 18 03:03:42 2015
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Session Time: Tue Mar 03 00:00:01 2015
Session Close: Tue Mar 03 04:30:24 2015

You acknowledged our cows were fresher from explores after the hostile with Stoners and you acknowledged that we were understocked, underdrafted compared to yours especially at the point of notice. It wasnt even because our cows were over-sciencing irresponsibly and not stocking, we were exploring back after recovery from the Stoners hostile so needed that time badly.

It seems obvious you have already planned us as your dodge move against Simians, and you did not have the decency to let us know we'll fight, despite my numerous attempts to reach you. Given that we were nice and considerate with you at every point (while within game rules/ethics on CF formations) while finalising our CF deal like you acknowledged, where I did my best on my part to try and find a sweet spot for both of us to have our CF expire, your KD still decided to throw all this out of the window and handed us a lowblow. I quote this again, where this was the talk we had while we were superior spot just prior to us hostiling Stoners.

[21:44] <leshrak> i think we want at least yr6 before we'll be ready for war, and we don't want to get into planning a war date
[21:44] <leshrak> a top war anyway
.......
[21:50] <NesTa13> i wont force it as an issue to ask of you to have a cf date that allows me to dodge the top 2 now better, but one that fits you better
[21:50] <NesTa13> year 6 48h you're looking for?
[21:51] <NesTa13> shall we have y6 +48h if no party is in war, but if one party is in war it becomes 72h if chosen to issue right OOW? that kinda sounds better?
[21:54] <leshrak> "i wont force it as an issue to ask of you to have a cf date that allows me to dodge the top 2 now better, but one that fits you better"
[21:54] <leshrak> sorry can you say that again? i'm not sure i understand
[21:54] <leshrak> do you mean that yr6 helps you better than us?
[21:54] <NesTa13> like i suggested y5 yesterday cos it fitted me as an out to at least have option to not war pew
[21:55] <NesTa13> but i wont force it on u if y5 doesnt interest u
[21:55] <NesTa13> thats all im saying
[21:55] <NesTa13> nothing too much, dont dwell over it too much
[21:56] <leshrak> oh ok i see

Oh and most importantly, I certainly do not agree that Utopia is worth losing your job or wife over it. But if you're putting in enough effort to at least login and prevent starving, surely you could put in some effort to make sure others' (in this case, me) goodwill while dealing with you was not compromised. All you needed to do was to simply send a message in-game over your decision, or tell a fellow council member to do it. Or is your moral and ethical compass in this game suggesting to you that your own province not starving (and losing say a couple million in retraining costs) is more important than you and your KD's reputation in terms of not ****playing? I honestly wouldnt be surprised if that were the case since a majority of your council, including you, showed no hesitation in encouraging razes from friends into your opponents in EOWCF.

[scheffie]

1) Based on a stray hit, you concluded they were not in an AWAR and made 60 over razes count for nothing. Even if you were given the benefit of the doubt that you want to "tempt" them into war, why would you ask for an additional 3.5k acres for CF and allow them to continue in their awar?

2) Sillies was never worried that you would gain a lot of land in the AWAR. We were more concerned that we gave a CF because you said you were not going to join the AWAR, therefore we were fine giving extra time to prep and war at a later date. Had we known that you were going to join the AWAR, our actions might have been very different. We MIGHT have waved you right on the spot instead of letting you take your free acres from meep. This being said, no one from your side replied to my question that none of the alliance would step in/ interfere if we ever notice you after the AWAR. Again we will give you the benefit of the doubt that you hated abs and felt very strongly about joining.

Just curious why no one could react on this post. Can Panda give an explanation?

[protector]

You do need to read the logs since you are accusing emerit of changing agreed deals and you think that we agreed to give Simians a prov crown. A simple read through the logs will prove that neither actualy happened and we can put a silly discussion to bed.

Fact is I insisted pretty much since none of you could overtake us, ASF seemed content with it and dorje wasn't. Other fact is that it wasn't in the deal that was sent ingame whilst it was in my understanding it would be for the above reason.

So if we agree to what you say, isent it Anri's fault that he did not read it?

Partially yes.

[Mithras]

Ok, Protector. I'll take this very slow. You insist on answering things I've never said and include specific situations in generic statements.

Because you wouldn't have to. We don't ask our friends/ex players to raze others into eowcf.

You did not have to. You chose to. My statement was generic. I would not chose that solution

Also my statement was:

I said everyone will try to get an edge any way they could and the only limit to that is a persons character and moral.

This is a generic statement. All players in utopia will try to get any edge they could. It is the only thing that all things have in common. Your gb to get ahead. We try to make deals that suit us. We do not agree on a prov crown for Simians since we did want it for ourselves. Your imaginary fight of dwarves vs humans is just that. Imaginary. It has no bearing on what I said.

If you still do not understand why this whole situation occurred as it did, you're mentally retarded.

I have already adressed that subject very clearly earlier in this thread. The answer was very simple:

You wanted to GB emeriti. No matter if the excuses held together or not.

I even stated exactly how I felt about it:

tbh I would personaly feel very much refreshed if you just said that. "I just wanted to kill you a**holes. F*ck the reasons" After weeks of bullsh*t back and forth some honesty would be much appriciated. I'd even think that the utopian comunity would respect that approach more. I for one definetly would.

[Mithras]

You expect someone to fight fair when you have already crossed the line and sent bour into eowcf (logs prove it), making it impossible to be a fair fight now? You even claiming that a fair fight could exist after that stunt pulled by your leadership is comical.

First off, if you actualy read the logs they prove that several of Emeriti LS is advising bour against attacking BB.
Second, BB was compensated by bour to give them an even better position to fight emeriti than before.
Third, Emeriti asked BB what they would want as compensation from them to make it a fair fight. BB stalled that since they already had decided on a dealbreak.

Facts are that Emeriti did everything they could to appease BB. BB just wasn't interested.

[Mithras]

We all read the logs

If you did read the logs then you would have seen that Emeriti councilmembers advised Bour to not attack BB as well.

But since Bour doesn't do just as Emeriti says he chose for himself.

[KuhaN]

People are not inherently evil. When they do things that seem cruel, it's caused by something.

No one wants to just raze someone else unless there is a reason for it. Mind boggling how you guys are still talking about the same crap over and over. No one is going to admit they're wrong, so why keep trying to prove that the other person is wrong? Just admit you were wrong and keep apologizing. Else just stop talking. Everything else is a waste of time.

Am I the only one that gets this?

[MyNameIsMatija]

People are not inherently evil. When they do things that seem cruel, it's caused by something.

No one wants to just raze someone else unless there is a reason for it. Mind boggling how you guys are still talking about the same crap over and over. No one is going to admit they're wrong, so why keep trying to prove that the other person is wrong? Just admit you were wrong and keep apologizing. Else just stop talking. Everything else is a waste of time.

Am I the only one that gets this?

You are not alone.

[Sheister]

Facts are that Emeriti did everything they could to appease BB. BB just wasn't interested.

Strictly speaking, that is not a fact. BB made proposals of things that were possible but were not accepted but emeriti COULD have done them. So no, not a fact. I am still waiting for anyone other than Bour (from the emeriti side) to present a fact. Bourt did present 5 facts. He did not include all the facts, but at least he included 5. Granted the 5 most favorable to himself and no others but heck, its progress.

You are not alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAyKJAtDNCw

[Korp]

Bour is not a dog that sits and high fives on command. Neither is he trained in attacking other ppls opponents on command. He does however tend to attack his own opponents in a game enviroment. When he does so he does not violate agreed CF:s and he actively tries to keeps his fights 1 vs 1.

He himself admitted it wasn't his style but some encouragement from Emeriti worked like a charm

[Pale]

First off, if you actualy read the logs they prove that several of Emeriti LS is advising bour against attacking BB.

No they didn't. Some just said they didn't think it was a good precedent to set and that was before bour was slapped. None of them actually advised bour against attacking BB once he was summoned.

Second, BB was compensated by bour to give them an even better position to fight emeriti than before.

Not at all. Ops were taken during that period, none of those acres were cow acres because it was done after a war loss, and it was way later. There is no way you can argue that the position BB was in after getting those acres was even close to the position they would have been had the razes never happened in the first place.

Third, Emeriti asked BB what they would want as compensation from them to make it a fair fight. BB stalled that since they already had decided on a dealbreak.

Facts are that Emeriti did everything they could to appease BB. BB just wasn't interested.

Like I said earlier, the minute those razes went in and BB is forced to deal with Bour and decided, and rightly so, to not give him exactly what he wants right away, there is no fair fight. You sent him in on it. Logs prove it. Saying Emeriti did everything possible is a downright lie. They offered what they were willing to offer. You guys just didn't want to give up anything of substance even after a transgression of that magnitude. I think the seriousness of sending bour in is the point where the 2 groups differ so highly. You guys want to play it down to the point where it's not your fault and it didn't do much to BB, whereas BB and those on their side believe 100% that you sent him after reading those logs and that the effects of it were huge.