Proposal to end he Awar

[Aranfein]

TakeshiCastle dude, at no point did i say a dealbreak is justified, i even say its wrong, so not sure why you copy my whole post.

If it had been down to me as BB i wouldnt have accepted a deal, i would have stalled, let Pyro and Emeriti war and then full wave Emeriti into EoWCF..

Again i am arguing the fact that Emeriti goes around in circles which is not helping their course, whether or not i agree with the severity of BBs punishment is irrelevant as its their provocative to seek revenge, the deal offered was clearly not what BB wanted to agree on, was it a big enough offer? maybe, but not in the eyes of BB so they are in their right to decline it, then its down to Emeriti to make a better offer or accept the deal BB has layed out on the table.. If Emeriti decline BBs deal thats on them, doesnt matter if the deal was unfair or not, we can all agree they couldnt reach a conclusion so war started.

No it might not be an "awar" but its what its called so why even try argue that? We can call it "Plenty More Stubborness" or for short "PMS"

[Sheister]

Here is another one of my dog as a puppy. He had just been neutered and this was his first experience with the cone of shame:

OMG! What a great pic!

[bombdigie]

Blind and Deaf, but Cute?

[AquaSeaFoam]

Stop circlejerking. We didn't get a CF we wanted, we got one we didn't want. We took one we HAD to take given the situation.

This is not true. You didn't HAVE to ask Emeriti for a YR4 CF at all. You COULD have instead just taken the 350 acres and extra free land bour offered you from the very start when he first razed. This was offered before you even turned on draft and if you just acted reasonable, you'd have got some extra free cow land with no damages other than having to give Bour a cf. You CHOSE not to take the free land Bour was offering because you CHOSE to instead demand he give you the button and give you a farm war. He said he'd give you free land, free gc, and even a fake hostile so you could prepare your fat asses longer for Emeriti, but he would not farm war you. You refused all his offers and then started demanding he give you 3x the land razed PLUS his whole kingdom raze down and agree to not grow above BB set size caps all age.

This was already a major overreaction by you to a guy offering you free land for a cf (just because he had to raze first to get you to even respond to his cf requests.)

It took forever for Bourreau to accept anything. When I did make a proposal, I suggested they'd stay below a certain size AND we'd get 2500 acres. He haggled about the size, then we agreed to that.
All of a sudden he gets waved and surprise, his steward declares.
The next time we talked, he suddenly doesn't agree with 2500 acres??? Every time we talked it felt as if something else was changing and the whole repaying/compensating was pushed back further and further to a point where we got ZERO cow land back and we ONLY lost cow land. We also didn't get any stolen resources back which were a few million GC nor did we get compensated for any economic losses.

It was you who kept rejecting all normal reasonable offers to give you free cow land for a cf. Instead you insisted on either a farm war for BB or their whole kingdom including their province in #1 and a few others in the top 15 all razing themselves down and then following BB set size caps all the rest of the age right from YR0 in addition to ~3x the amount of free acres that BB lost. When you are completely unreasonable and won't accept any of the reasonable offers he made form the start to give you free cow land, free gc, etc, then you force him into defending himself since you will not agree to any reasonable deals.

Forcing them to give you a button for a farm war or raze their whole kd down and follow size caps are simply not reasonable requests for what happened. You CHOSE to be completely unreasonable and reject all reasonable offers and now you're mad that in the end you got slightly less than what you rejected but you did get your "Punishments" on Bour with your ridiculous size caps and still got ~3x the land back you lost.

If I raze you into EOWCF, does it NOT hurt your preparation?! /takes notes

Razing for 350 acres and offering extra cow land back immediately would not have a major effect on preparation. Even losing 350 acres without getting any back would only be a minor negative on your preparations. Emeriti has taken hits into notice periods frequently including both large plunders and also large trad marches. I would not be surprised if Emeriti took hits at the same time as Bour hit you. Yes it's annoying but when the hitter was asking for a cf first (having messages read and not responded to even if for only 4 hours) and then offering all land plus extra cow land back for a cf at the time of razing, then you just plain overreacted and it's your overreaction that created the problems, not the 350 acres lost and offered back with interest.

At first, no. But when you refused any form of punishment we were left with no choice other than taking matter into our own hands. Which is what we did.

No one refused any reasonable "punishments" Bour offered you the razed land plus more back from the start. This would have put all razed acres plus extra onto himself as his own losses and left BB with only gained cow land. In the end he lost all his top provinces and agreed to your size caps and gave you back ~3x what you lost.

Emeriti offered BB their own land too along with whatever adjusted cf terms BB wanted and whatever other terms BB required to ensure their position was fully restored. Emeriti losing their own land, resources, and taking a bad adjusted cf deal would have definitely "punished" Emeriti. The only punishments that were rejected was you demanding Emeriti (who had been #1 basically all age) intra raze down and drop out of competition in YR1 so that BB could go for the crown with no other real competition. This is simply absurd and completely unprecedented for such a minor incident.

I think as punishment we should have dorje, cerb, leshrak, asf and mithras make a video of each of them writing 1000 times "Hitting into end of war cease fire is a poor sportsmanship, it is unethical and it is unacceptable behavior." and uploading it to UtopiaTube
Mithras can do 2000 since he likes to repeat himself even more than the others!

Will we also have BB and friends making a video of you each writing 1000 times "Deal breaking and waving kingdom's in war is poor sportsmanship, it is unethical and it is unacceptable behavior just like trying to demand the kingdom above us on the rankings and our only competition raze themselves down YR1 and agree not to compete under implied threats of gb is poor sportsmanship."

If we want to talk about ethics, your lying and deal breaking are by the worst ethical violations as they are considered wrong both inside and outside utopia. Things like waving into active wars or advising a weaker kingdom to cf you under threats of razing if you won't are game constructs and considered wrong in the context of utopia but do not apply outside the game despite Sheister's attempts at legal wrangling for PR purposes.

[bombdigie]

If it is so wrong, why does it feel so right with you guys? Lying cheats.

[Mike^]

seriouse asf just go quit the game, you are a m*therbiiiiiip, all you done cheating lieing GB killing the game so many loved.
No one for a second belives your lies.
What a wast of spa*e you are.

[Korp]

seriouse asf just go quit the game, you are a m*therbiiiiiip, all you done cheating lieing GB killing the game so many loved.

Pot calling the kettle black :)

[Mike^]

Pot calling the kettle black :)

< Got to learn from someone correct ?

This is what asf showed us so many ages ago to do.

[flogger]

This was already a major overreaction by you to a guy offering you free land for a cf (just because he had to raze first to get you to even respond to his cf requests.)

I'm just quoting this because its unusually stupid

[Palem]

Will someone delete Bishop when he deletes someone? The judge doesnt get punished for delivering the punishment obviously unless they end up in a weaker spot.

Who has power to do that? Next age, roles may be different.

Was just point out it's not as simple as SnirpsneR was suggesting.

Also, judges don't do the punishments, they just decide what the punishment will be. Poor example :p

[bombdigie]

Was just point out it's not as simple as SnirpsneR was suggesting.

Also, judges don't do the punishments, they just decide what the punishment will be. Poor example :p

[Aranfein]

All this is stupid :p

BB overeact
Emeriti ****played but used a minion to do so, still calling ****play ****play.

Agree on deal, recruit for later age/new age and lets get it rolling next age for some proper matchup and fun, less organised = FUN (Flogger, Prot, ASF, Leshrak all agree that less CF deals/organised play, is good for business).

Also can people plz tag if your in the AWAR instead of just sitting in fort shouting when you get a stray hit, its not easy for minions to figure out whos fighting in the awar so stray hits will happen if you dont tag.

[AquaSeaFoam]

Further ASF - go back and read our text messages. The last texts only discussed bour taking himself out, nothing with emeriti. Our texts aren't that long. This was our last diplo, if I recall. Zauper was after that.

Just because you say things over and over again and are worked up, it doesn't make them "facts"

The text conversation was NOT our last diplo, it was our first. An hour after that we continued the talk on IRC and this is when you insisted on Emeriti also razing down and dropping out of your competition in addition to Bour also razing down and having your size caps.


From the initial text message conversation:

Flogger:
"Thought you said earlier he was talking about quitting anyways"

ASF
"Yep, he was talking about deleting"

Flogger
"The nudge him where he was thinking of going anyways?"

ASF
"The kd is actually more than just him"

Flogger
"Looks like 3 dudes"
"I presume like the shamus's or rocks or other random retirees"

ASF
"Not sure who all"
"But more than just him and I think more than 3"

Flogger
"So dorje wants them small and we want em small, seems there should be enough agreement from both sides to make it happen"
"I mean sizes can rise some as the age progresses, just 1k for now being about the size of irrelevance"

ASF
"The problem is that neither side is them"

Flogger
"It's not hard to control your own retirement ghetto, jeeze"

ASF
"When they are small they go from getting owned in war by ghetto after ghetto"
"Can you or protector just talk to bour and see what you can work out? I dont really feel like having to go to him and say he cant play utopia because ti might interfere with my ex kd"
"Try working something out with him and if not successful, let me know and I will try and help"


Bour was agreeing to give you 3x the land back that was razed and accept your size caps. Then this is when you decided to add your new demands since it looked like your first ones were getting filled. The same conversation continued an hour later on IRC:

<flogger> heya
<flogger> this is just a really hard situation for me and both of us
<flogger> and I appreciate your general honesty when we talked earlier, but I'm willing to open up and say what it is that I want to resolve the current issue
<flogger> since I could honestly care less about bourreau's ghetto
<AquaSeaFoam> ok
<flogger> I wanted to make sure you couldn't say you didn't know what happenned so that when we ultimately talked, and I tell you I know exactly what happenned, that you knew what that meant
<flogger> and the most shocking thing to me, is simply the 100% complete lack of leadership that went on. Between me and absalom, we are pretty much 100% of the standard bearers of god, what the past 30 ages
....
<flogger> all I want is an apology, an admission of what happenned, and I want the punishment being they don't go for the crown
<flogger> this is the heart of our diplomacy
<flogger> I want to quit, leave our kd to our brand new monarch to learn, fight, and probably lose
<flogger> and leave this age to like WSK, coss, our new nub without me and whoever else wants to crown
....
<AquaSeaFoam> anyway, i am fine posting apologies for what happened and so are others in emeriti. i am fine admitting anything i believe to be true also regarding your positioning and emeriti's. i'm not fine with being blackmailed into saying anythign i don't think is true and emeriti wouldn't agree to give up the age yr1 no matter what i tell them to do
<flogger> I just fail to see what either emeriti or bourreau is even giving up or being punished for in that case
<flogger> seems like they just hit into EoW and get everything they want
<AquaSeaFoam> that alone isn't anything
<AquaSeaFoam> what's the lates with bour?
<AquaSeaFoam> i dont know anythign beyond they did 7 razes or something
<flogger> haven't talked to him, nor have looked
<AquaSeaFoam> and i think intrad down at leat bours prov
<AquaSeaFoam> not sure about others
<flogger> decided to just let you know what we actually want
<AquaSeaFoam> do they have land left?
<flogger> although you indicate emeriti won't go for it
<flogger> they have some land, can just go with the approx 2k or whatever is fair for land lost + stalling time and then go from there
<AquaSeaFoam> again, you need to understand that 1) emeriti really didn't want you razed as bargaining leverage or help for themselves. tehy really did jsut want bour to have a cf and not farm out to you
<flogger> tbh thought my kd woulda done that by today, but mighta gotten caught up on the land control thing
<AquaSeaFoam> 2) they were prepared to fight you out of your war or take a reasonable cf deal. they were prepared to do either one
<flogger> I fully understand that
<flogger> but they 100% ****e dup
<AquaSeaFoam> yes they ****ed up
<flogger> they implied he should raze us
<flogger> and he then proceeded to
<AquaSeaFoam> but the level of **** up isn't really proportional to giving up the whole age in yr1
<flogger> you know as well as I do that this fight was the only thing all age that would be even close to 50/50
<flogger> clerics vs sages with 1 BPA in all the war skis?
<AquaSeaFoam> it'd be like when elit ****ed up and you knew he would do somethign lame and didn't stop him tht you should have gave up the age despite sitting in #1
<AquaSeaFoam> that would be ridiculous
<AquaSeaFoam> so instead land was re-distributed and you warred with advantages like you already had
<flogger> been a long time sinc ethe elit ages
<AquaSeaFoam> 3 ages?


This was all from the same day and is pasted in chronological order. The full conversation is a lot longer and I'm perfectly happy to paste it all but the post is already long. As you can see, you are absolutely wrong, we did discuss in depth about Emeriti, and it appears to have happened because you were close to finalizing all the terms of Bour giving you 3x the compensation and taking himself out and capping his growth to bb set ghetto levels. Because your demands regarding bour were being met, you then said "decided to just let you know what we actually want" and demanded Emeriti raze down and remove themselves from competition so that you could leave the age to your new nub leadership to try and crown competing against wsk and Coss.

Every time you try and post lies and try and claim that it's me or Bour or whoever lying, the logs show that it is you lying and what we keep repeating "over and over again" is the truth despite you trying to lie about it and deny it.

[flogger]

So the logs show my first offer was just for Bour to kill himself and you Coulda just ended everything after 5 minutes of diplo then?

One could say you played that poorly then, I guess.

[AquaSeaFoam]

No, your logs show you first asked for that, i said talk to Bour and if there are problems let me know and I'd help. Bour was cooperative and agreeing to your terms so 1 hour later you messaged me further to open up and say what it was you really wanted since you didnt' actually care about bour.

<flogger> and I appreciate your general honesty when we talked earlier, but I'm willing to open up and say what it is that I want to resolve the current issue
<flogger> since I could honestly care less about bourreau's ghetto

You then unloaded your *real* demands of Emeriti razing down and dropping out of competition so BB could go for the crown competing against wsk and Coss.

The second conversation of your real demands was 1 hour after the text conversation ended according to my logs and Bour was agreeing to give you 3x the razed land back plus acre caps on his whole kingdom. Why do you keep lying when the logs clearly show you are lying?