The bottom is hot

[Avispa]

Gangland mentality - I guess for all that they are such good players they are acting like a typical group of bullies, who have little insight.

[Uncle Ed]

Ohhhh I get it now. Person A and Person B have a disagreement, and this gives person C, D, and E an excuse to be dicks, right? You guys crack me up, I am seriously laughing my ass off here. Spartans are in war, and 2 kingdoms are razing into this war because Bart broke an agreement with someone else. That is fricken hilarious. There is no bigger dick move in the game then razing into someone elses war, and why? Dealbreaking, Dealbreaking, Bad diplo and dealbreaking (did I get that right Binar?) hahaha

I have only been back in the game a few ages but I have to admit this is the most gutless thing I have seen. 2 HUGE kingdoms razing a kingdom 1/3 their size while they are in war. Tell me why again? oh yeah, they broke a deal. hahaha I have to log off now, my stomach hurts from laughing so hard.

[Defiance]

Ohhhh I get it now. Person A and Person B have a disagreement, and this gives person C, D, and E an excuse to be dicks, right? You guys crack me up, I am seriously laughing my ass off here. Spartans are in war, and 2 kingdoms are razing into this war because Bart broke an agreement with someone else. That is fricken hilarious. There is no bigger dick move in the game then razing into someone elses war, and why? Dealbreaking, Dealbreaking, Bad diplo and dealbreaking (did I get that right Binar?) hahaha

I have only been back in the game a few ages but I have to admit this is the most gutless thing I have seen. 2 HUGE kingdoms razing a kingdom 1/3 their size while they are in war. Tell me why again? oh yeah, they broke a deal. hahaha I have to log off now, my stomach hurts from laughing so hard.

No not at all person C,D and E have the right to disagree and do what they believe is right and in this case what is right.

[Judge]

Very good timing on this post. After all the posts saying specifically that sparta deserves this because of our history (doing hardball diplo with bigger/stronger kds). Now that people are in here saying we have treated kds that we could safely **** play with honour and kindness you swoop in to clarify the mistake with "this is not about spartan's history"

score another point for the hypocrites, bc your right this is not about history. This is just about the mistake we made trying to **** play a strong kd that had wronged us instead of following the white knight example and **** play the weak.

I dont think we should have **** played (not a DB, I will never accept that something that would be allowed vs a weak kd is a DB vs a strong one). I dont think its wrong for the kd/alliance involved to respond with force. I do think it's wrong to turn this into a flame war or for people to pretend this is about justice, when it is really about strength. We did something that is commonly accepted in UTO, but we did it in the wrong direction.

Very good timing of your post as well when you have been shouting your technicalities out here on the forums and when technically you deal broke Emeriti you say its not fair!!

MOMMA HELP ME!!!

[Persain]

, because quite frankly I do not see an action here that warrants the gangbanging you have done to his kingdom, or the flaming you have done in these forums.

everyone is nice sometimes, and really when bart/heaven was first learning he pmed me a decent amount asking for advise. I offered it i was nice, he seemed friendly i had no clue what kd he even played in because i didnt care. I even had ZERO idea bart/heaven were the same people untill AFTER we waved them for offering a fake war.

As for the gangbang its really simple. We want an apology and to take something from his kd as "punishment". He could have eaten the damage from a few massacres and gotten a war from us which he might win and would of garenteed him the honor crown. He could of offered us even 5k honor, or something else as a token as a yea i shouldn't of lied, broke our word when we cf'ed intially. Instead he demanded 15k honor and when i got upset and asked another kd to deal the diplomacy with him he lowered the demand to 10k all the while threatening both kds to call in "his friends" in CR, BB. Ultimately every top kd looked at what happen sided with us (which only matters because he threaten to use them to help him) and still wont even apologize. I dont care if he single handled grew this game from 3k->30k people and is the nicest guy in the game, he deal broke us and has subsequently treated us like ****. How does that not deserve a gangbang?

It makes it all the harder because when i talk to him i get

[Thursday 19/11/2015][10:20] <Heaven> and please, can you for once not save your logs and throw everything on the utoforums?
[Thursday 19/11/2015][10:20] <Heaven> its starting t annoy me
.......
[Thursday 19/11/2015][10:37] <Heaven> u are free to post all of this on the utoforums

which one do should i listen too... how about

[Thursday 19/11/2015][10:45] <Heaven> ok my offer
[Thursday 19/11/2015][10:45] <Heaven> 1. We publicly apologize for dealbreaking
[Thursday 19/11/2015][10:45] <Heaven> 2. The top will in a joint effort formulate concrete RULES OF NEGOTIATIONs, including templates. which will be shared to all parties involved in this game
[Thursday 19/11/2015][10:46] <Heaven> which also means informing ghettos of these rules. And enforcement of these rules

You deal-break us, and now i have to get 10+ other kds to agree to something like that and then enforce it? thats not even addressing the fact that our relations 1v1 need to be solved. We aren't addressing world hunger here. When the conversation actually reaches a 'what were you thinking" i get

[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:17] <Heaven> a KD that has not been nice to me --> better make sure u cover every angle of an agreement and have it watertight, because if not I will come after you
[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:17] <Heaven> so yea, we would'v estuck to our terms
[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:18] <PersainCAT> so basically...
[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:18] <PersainCAT> if i dont like u or feel slighted by you in anyway, i will lie to u and try to convince u of something thats not true till im in a stronger position then i'll hurt them
[Thursday 19/11/2015][11:18] <Heaven> yes

His flat out PLAN is to lie and manipulate and dealbreak people and bash them down unless they instantly agree to war him in a way hes likely to win.

Look, while i have strong feelings about that stuff and it makes me want to closely monitor his kd so he cant do this to someone that isn't in a postion to fight back, all he has to/had to do to not get gang-banged was be reasonable, open, honest and willing to acccept punishment for making a mistake here. Future or past issues with his kd can come into play if something else arises in the future.

[beans]

I will freely admit that sparta pulled a ****ty move. Bart even admits that, and I'd bet that he'd apologize for the ****ty move if he thought any one would care or listen.

We will never admit that it was a DB though. Bart, I, the rest of the KD, and many other KDs have had enough dealings with powerful KDs to see the double standard. When we clearly stated that our deal could be accepted no later then a certain date, and divinity accepted after that date because they were greedy and wanted to squeeze in extra hits... That throws the whole deal into question.

Having had to deal with some rather complicated contracts irl I can 100% guarantee that that kind of breach would not be ignored in a contract dispute. Does that make sparta right? No, but it does mean that we have good reason to see this as not a DB. There is examples irl and in uto that show that voiding a deal based for similar date or other technical issues does happen.

Was it a ****ty move? yes
Do I think that emerati had some justification to retal the ****ty move? yes
was it a DB? No

Maybe if we get like 10 more OOW waves then we will suddenly realize that despite divinity missing the deadline it was actually a DB? oh wait no, just realized that is stupid. Punish away but no amount of razes will get sparta to agree we did any thing more then a ****ty a move. Our requirements for the EOA CF we were forced to offer were clearly not met and we will never ever see divinity stalling for more hits and taking the CF a tick late as anything but a break in diplo.

No spartan has been in here crying about our punishment. Refusing to lay down and be silent while others flame us is not the same as crying. We did not bring this to the forums. We have only responded to what others brought to the forums. If our efforts to show our perspective offend you then feel free to discuss your hatred for sparta in a private IRC with your friends.

[Persain]

We will never admit that it was a DB though.

read the post above, if we give in to a ton of terms he'd admit to it. But then again im sure alot of kds will admit to something if they are given enough other stuff

[Chrystal Palace]

How is divinity a top kd? From our prospective its mid tier versus mid tier. Yeah persain just had the sense to ask for help. Everyone keeps going on about all these kingdoms getting **** played every day. Really? We haven't gotten one message asking for help. Only divinity. And it was a clear deal break because divinity even stated in your diplo they had one azn that might hit on the 8th. They never agreed to all hits being finished on the 7th. Deal break is a deal break.

[Uncle Ed]

It's funny, I told u earlier how a kingdom lied and manipulated us into a war, killed 3 of my guys, taunted us with banners, insulted us and no one banded together to GB that kingdom. I mean you did say you look out for people that are not in a position to fight back, right? Where was your gangland justice then? Instead you are GB'ing someone that could have smashed us for backing out of a war but chose to help us instead, and you say you are GB'ing them because they will "bash down anyone unless they agree to war him in a way hes likely to win". The evidence shows you are wrong sir. Two people have come in here saying that Bart was fair and reasonable with us when he could have been a dick. 2 Kingdoms are smashing Spartans while they are in a war, and you want me to believe its because you are looking out for us mid-tier guys? You are making sure Spartans do not bully us? OMG, there goes my stomach again. hahaha

[Andreas]

I leave it to someone less nub than me to verify the following. :p

Since game admins leaves it to the player to deal with these sort of matters, this is generally how justice is maintained:
- The dealbroken kd usually files a complaint to a larger kd and asks them for help. The supposed dealbreaking kd does the same, I guess.
- That larger kd contacts other (by the community) respected leaders, asking their opinion and stance in the matter.
- If no resolve is found and a majority of the community agreed that it is in fact a dealbreak, policing starts and ends when the dealbreaking kd agrees to the terms offered, or it keeps taking damage until there isn't much left to lose.

It's common that the policing kds razes whatever acres gained so as not to profit from the incident. They can be seen as an instrument of the community to make sure deals can be trusted and foul play not rewarded.

If you feel mistreated you can appeal in the forum, but whining and repeating old arguments won't help.

At least that's how I like to see it. As good as it gets. Sometimes its more complicated than in this case though :P

[beans]

read the post above, if we give in to a ton of terms he'd admit to it. But then again im sure alot of kds will admit to something if they are given enough other stuff

All I see him asking for is a clear set of rules to follow for diplo. We have been **** played before, prob every one in the game has been ****played at one point or another, it sucks. If Bart is willing to call our **** play a deal break in exchange for a set of rules that would allow mid tier to play on an even playing field of diplo with stronger KDs then good for him. You want bart to not pull tricky deals in the future? seems like working towards standardizing diplo would be a good place to start.

If you want a concession that only benefits you or punishes sparta, but doesnt address the larger issues then you are out of luck. We have lost plenty already and I at least dont feel sparta owes any thing extra to the kds OOW GBing us. If you white knights could get over your hatred for Bart you might see that standardized diplo would help the game in a lot of ways. Top always criticises inexperienced kds who get near top for their bad diplo, and the new kds criticise the top ones for their crazy diplo and double standards. Standardized diplo would reduce loopholes and double standards, it would make it easier for kds that are active and skilled at game mechanics to play at the top level with out disbanding due to diplo disparity. This is not really the core issue to the whole sparta v divinity **** play issue, but I don't see it as a huge concession or something that benefits bart... itd really just be good for the game.

[Binar]

It's funny, I told u earlier how a kingdom lied and manipulated us into a war, killed 3 of my guys, taunted us with banners, insulted us and no one banded together to GB that kingdom. I mean you did say you look out for people that are not in a position to fight back, right? Where was your gangland justice then? Instead you are GB'ing someone that could have smashed us for backing out of a war but chose to help us instead, and you say you are GB'ing them because they will "bash down anyone unless they agree to war him in a way hes likely to win". The evidence shows you are wrong sir. Two people have come in here saying that Bart was fair and reasonable with us when he could have been a dick. 2 Kingdoms are smashing Spartans while they are in a war, and you want me to believe its because you are looking out for us mid-tier guys? You are making sure Spartans do not bully us? OMG, there goes my stomach again. hahaha

This has nothing to do with your kingdom or how Spartans treated you.
This is the way Utopia has always policed itself, to keep some sort of code where you dont break deals without it having consequenses. Bart knew this.

Heaven> you guys just can't accept it
<Heaven> that this tiny noob outplayed ya
<Heaven> things change though
<Heaven> noobs don't stay noobs for always
<Binar> lol
<Binar> prepare to be razed
<Heaven> you think I wasn't prepared for that?
<Heaven> I knew this would b framed
<Heaven> to make us look bad
<Heaven> but I wonder if Emeriti will sacrifice their next age
<Heaven> just to raze us for you guys
<Binar> i bet they will
<Binar> over a nub that aint even playing
<Heaven> if Emeriti interferes
<Heaven> I migh just create an account ;)
<Heaven> and go blizz-style

[Persain]

If Bart is willing to call our **** play a deal break in exchange for a set of rules that would allow mid tier to play on an even playing field of diplo with stronger KDs then good for him.

basically saying that he'll lie to force other kds to follow some standard that he created and changed they way we all play utopia? yea, sure thats kinda 1 part of the issue, he'll do/say anything if it makes him look good.

If you want a concession that only benefits you or punishes sparta, but doesnt address the larger issues then you are out of luck. We have lost plenty already and I at least dont feel sparta owes any thing extra to the kds OOW GBing us.

Then they keep geting GB'ed. Spartans havent lost anything till they get a war loss or lose 20-30-40k honor. Acres mean nothing ww/honor have meaning to bart so they gota lose that. They had a chance to not lose either and war us w/a chance to win and take our honor but they long gave that up.

[beans]

I leave it to someone less nub than me to verify the following. :p

Since game admins leaves it to the player to deal with these sort of matters, this is generally how justice is maintained:
- The dealbroken kd usually files a complaint to a larger kd and asks them for help. The supposed dealbreaking kd does the same, I guess.
- That larger kd contacts other (by the community) respected leaders, asking their opinion and stance in the matter.
- If no resolve is found and a majority of the community agreed that it is in fact a dealbreak, policing starts and ends when the dealbreaking kd agrees to the terms offered, or it keeps taking damage until there isn't much left to lose.

It's common that the policing kds razes whatever acres gained so as not to profit from the incident. They can be seen as an instrument of the community to make sure deals can be trusted and foul play not rewarded.

If you feel mistreated you can appeal in the forum, but whining and repeating old arguments won't help.

At least that's how I like to see it. As good as it gets. Sometimes its more complicated than in this case though :P

That is a fair assessment. I dont really have a problem with any of those aspects of the event.

given that framework of how things "normally" go id just point out. 1) spartan's did not bring this to the forums, we just responded to what others brought here. 2) We understand the UTO police decided this was a DB and accept the consequences of that decision, but don't have to agree with it 3) The UTO police have already taken far far far more than we gained and are demanding we give up more.


Also Persians, can you post the rest of your convo with Bart or PM it to me?

[Persain]

far far far more than we gained and demanding we give up more.

Also Persians, can you post the rest of your convo with Bart or PM it to me?

i offered to have u guys surrender your current war and raze away a portion of your honor. can easily get back the "land" you lost. Remember you have to lose something of "value" to you and since acres are meaningless well u havent lost anything yet.


i'll post the conversation later, to many locations to remove first