Game Needs More Good kds Competing

A lack of targets they created for themselves by virtue of their alliance.

Again........... not MY problem.

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Originally Posted by tetley

I would say that sillcats DO try and war their way to a crown - but it's the WW crown ;)

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Which they've never won. If they were the best warring kingdom (possible), and that crown was relevant (it's not), don't you think they would have won it at some point?

War win crown is just a competition to see who can get the most wars.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

War win crown is just a competition to see who can get the most wars.

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Very true.
If you want to wint WW competition you need to make reputation like mercy and go for WW next age :D
No one is going to war silly animals :(

well if for example the top 2 in charts is currently both ABS kingdoms, to avoid the boredom in their kingdom and the spectators here, they can always declare each other and fight for real.

I mean c'mon just having fun right? What good is being on top when their swords are growing cobwebs.

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Originally Posted by Lord RyeX

well if for example the top 2 in charts is currently both ABS kingdoms, to avoid the boredom in their kingdom and the spectators here, they can always declare each other and fight for real.

I mean c'mon just having fun right? What good is being on top when their swords are growing cobwebs.

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ABS play for land and fun come from win. They don't need nonsense war what only can help other competitors to beat them. Problem is not ABS, but rest kds cant compete good enough. When there is strong kd ABS loss every time. Do you remember last age :)

I text octo from time to time, and he tells me that if I were to return, I'd still be without peer. When someone actually proves their mettle and completes a b2b, I'll return to stop the 3 peat, guaranteed.

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Originally Posted by Palem

There's been a lot of complaining about Absalom ruining the game by dominating the top and not letting anyone else compete. These accusations are false. Absalom doesn't win the majority of the time. Going back 20 ages (that stretches back to the end of Playboys), Abs has won 7 crowns, 9 if you insist on including HoH, which you shouldn't. So 11/20 crowns were won by kds who were 100% non-affiliated with Absalom. It's not like there's no room to compete.

THE PROBLEM is that there aren't enough people competing. Of course Abs is sitting at the top. They're the only good kds left in the game. The top 4 is very appropriate because that's really about it. What's frustrating is that there COULD be so much more.

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Lol. And lol.

People gave up long ago because Absalom were invinsible. And those kds who win the crown have usually had to kiss Absalom's a** to win.
Now, I haven't played for a while but I see this has gotten worse since I was here, with every kd in a permanent NAP with everyone around them. Attacking another kd requires notification(LOL WTF), which is crazy. That is one reason why I never came back, the top kd culture is completely messed up. This is a game for sissy girls now.

Another factor is that some of the best kds in opposition to Absalom have been dominated by the biggest egosentrics in the game, such as Realest, guys who stop at nothing at getting attention towards how good and skilled they are, going their own ways in everything(lol, his post above mine shows exactly what I'm talking about. A need to point at how good and "veteran" he is by mentioning that he is offered having no peers). This has made all kinds of reasonable cooperation impossible and has broken many a kd. Blind to see the greater good, these kds have usually gone for short term profit rather than winning in the long run. This is what pushed HoH into ABS' arms.

ABS have simply been too strong for too long. They won. Every foe is gone, it just got too stale for most people.

To this day, Absalom is the worst thing that ever happened to utopia. They simply bored people to death by being too strong for too long. Not their fault, but it happened.

These accusations are true. (See what I did there?)

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Originally Posted by Palem

Stop making excuses for others?
Aside from that TFC is getting better every age. Can Beastblood claim the same? There's something your kd can get better at, so go do it instead of wasting time telling me I run a 25 faery kd. I know that already.

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What excuses? How is that even relevant to me telling you to start with your own kingdom?
TFC is getting better every age because it's pretty hard to make it get worse...

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Originally Posted by Palem

Here's an example to follow:
10 The Faery Circle (x:x) Icia 113,403 acres

Kd that can't attack is beating out 355 other kds (97% of the game). That's a joke.

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You're not competitive just because you are currently ranked 10 ;p

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Originally Posted by Proteus

Why is it so important to make the kingdoms going for land and the smaller or as you call them "warring" kingdoms interact? Seems that is what the uniformed people are always pushing for.

The good thing about this game is that it is very dynamic/versatile and provides an avenue for players with different goals & different ideas of what is considered fun to compete. If you change the mechanics enough you can have everyone playing the same game..question is would they enjoy it?

If the larger kingdoms really wanted to, they would just not explore or take land every age and stay small and war everyone. If the warring kingdoms wanted to, they would take land and try to fight the larger kingdoms. Both are possible considering Divinity & bio were smaller warring kingdoms and in select ages would grow to fight bigger kingdoms whereas Sanc stayed smaller and went for honor before whoring up.

Right now the game provides players the opportunity to do what they enjoy, changing mechanics to force interactions that are already possible should players decide to do so would be a big mistake.

When the game was at its peak, the only difference was that there were 20+ kingdoms competing for the top and the rest of the 90k player base did not interact with these kingdoms. Now the game has scaled down and you have a similar percentage competing for the top that you used to at the peak of the game. The past few ages there has been a bit less competition at the top but the situation still changes every age. The only thing that really needs fixing are some of the game mechanics, not how the game is actually played.

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Woah I have to agree ;p
(Except for the Sanc to stay small and go for honor part, they never had that intention until after that war)

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Originally Posted by JordanL

Isn't the fact that there isn't that much competition at the top a direct result of the fact that the top KDs often engage in play that most players don't want to duplicate, like setting alarms and such?

I mean... if you're going to force an arms race of who can spend the most energy on the game, and then be surprised when not many people do, you're gonna have a bad time.

There aren't many top KDs because not many people want to play in the style the top KDs force. You're a victim of your own success.

Ghettos find plenty of targets, and they all seem to have a decent time, **until** they encounter a top KD that takes all the fun out of their game.

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I think you'll be surprised how many non-top kingdoms also have players set alarms for waves and such when they're in a conflict

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Originally Posted by Lestat

I don't buy it Prot ;). Sitting yes I can understand that. I don't buy that top KDs would recruit someone who said they may or may not be able to army in/army out during war as their standard activity.

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I've done that a few times myself. I preferred someone that was a friend with another player in the kingdom over a totally unknown guy even if it might end up having required sitting in times of hostile/war.

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Originally Posted by Palem

I'm amused at how many people want to come in here and tell me about my own kds shortcomings or make up pointless excuses rather than accepting my challenge and improving on something they're bad at.

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You're contradicting yourself.. you keep telling others to accept your challenge and improve, while at the same time you decline that same challenge and hide behind a "TFC is meant for fun" excuse, gg.

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Originally Posted by Crazy Pete

Diplomacy is the key to success nowadays, not so much skills. Anybody can pump science and make good coin if you CF most of the server and have a 1/2 good strategy. +22.2% Population Limits. Small kd's or warring kd's that want to compete need to cf early and whore whore whore (smart whoring ofc), once your out of range of most of the Un CF'd kd's you change to an economy/science pump. Super easy but very boring. I wish to see more competition other then Floggers kd.

I was hoping That Meenie and Old School would have brought more competition to the top, not sure of which kd they are or if they exist still or what happened to them. BiO fell of, so hopefully one of those kd's in top 10 now can pick up a couple of good players from old top kd's to help them next age with a good OOP/diplomacy set up, this age is all but over for a non-absalom kd winning. It was nice to see a non Absalom KD win last age.

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You mean we can now officially say HoH = Absalom? :D

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Case in point, BiO last age, chose the dwarf cleric and similar whoring BS. They got RUINED by ghetto cats and later by monument because what they chose could not stand up to real wars. (though to be more fair, monument rode the ghetto cat's coat tails on that one....AW takes way to long to recover from).

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Perhaps it is possible BiO lost because they where outmatched in activity/strategy rather than setup? Dwarf cleric was hands down the best pick last age but just because you pick dwarf cleric it doesn't mean you'll auto win your wars.

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Originally Posted by Shifty11

Abs is such a pathetic alliance. You'd think they would feed on other 25 man provinces, instead of 20 man provinces who just left the ghetto.

No, they're pathetic. They couldn't fight for honor if they tried to, because they don't know how to.

There's your answer. They fight for land and networth because that's all they know, and that's all they can do.

They're good at that to the point where warring KDs don't compete for land or networth, because there just isn't any point competing with a KD that has 5 Human Merchants, and 20 Dwarf Merchants. Like really? Merchant? Our ghettos don't allow attackers to be merchants, because it's such a piss poor choice for one.

But they aren't really into warring or WWs. The most reknown KD with the worst WW ratio. Thumbs #*$&ing up. (Y)

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Any of the top kingdoms can compete on the top honor charts (if they would want to).

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Originally Posted by Palem

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@Persain - This is nothing like world of warcraft. Everything on utopia is connected, not so much in WoW. You want honor? You need to war. You want to crown? You'll need to war. You want to win wars? You may need to engage in a war or two. As far as your race setup and competeting. You have 1 more war win than Rage and you are 62% of their size.

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So if I sum up, for anything you want in Utopia, you need to war, right?
TFC is sitting on a solid record of 0 wars so far. Having fun are you? ;)

Divinity tried this age to war a few abs kd's. Mostly POLITICS is what has stopped us. Getting caught in a bad war and PEWPEW not wanting to backoff has lead to a huge acre-gap which makes warring them near impossible.

That said and staying top 40-50 in size and warring 5-6-7 times was more fun. Not cause its ghettobashing but cause it was more warring less politics and ALSO more challenging. AND usually the wars are around same size +-5%.
Top 3 most challenging and difficult wars and close-calls we've had is from "down in the ghetto levels" for example vs Freeakstyle.

The SKILL required to play top level is not that much greater compared to the time it drains.

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Originally Posted by Palem

This is false. Winning wars is a wonderful tool for growth. I believe Beastblood's biggest growth spurts were due to winning their wars. It's only when you can't win your war that your growth stalls.

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You need to win by a large surplus to make it worthwhile. If ya don't, you'll be wrecked from a war with barely preparation for another fight against a kingdom who had plenty of time to prepare.
Even with the big acre gain vs Rage, we had money issues for our fight against Mercy EOA. Mercy had more than twice the amount of gold we had for dragons/wages etc. And we where lucky Rage didn't chain any of our provinces deeply.

If you add the fortified time, the war and the eow cf all together, you need to win quite a bit to make warring worthwhile. Most of the times it isn't more profitable then whoring (as whoring allows you to be in a pumpbuild for wpa/sci etc)

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Originally Posted by Yadda9To5

Want more kingdoms to compete? Fix the game. It sucks for new players/kingdoms at the moment and everyone is too blind to see it. Having new players land in the worst kingdoms available where their provinces are raped by slightly less sucky kingdoms simply because they are in a kingdom that can't protect them is not the way to attract new players to the game. Any player, how bad or good, will suck when landing in a ghetto and shine when playing in a top 10 kingdom, the experiences are so different they are beyond comparison.

Also, the whole "but we aren't active and don't demand 24/7 activity" ruse, is nothing more than that, a ruse, or maybe a deliberate pretense to claiming a "real life". In the top kingdoms most players can get online any time of the day/night. That their provs claim to do so voluntary (peer pressure works wonders) doesn't change the fact that the level of activity in the top is rather intense. Lesser active kds are only in the top because they're allowed to be. Still nothing wrong with that, in a similar fashion top sport also requires top activity, nothing wrong with the athletes that train hardest being the best, same with utopia, the more you put into it, the more you get out.

However, I don't think top competition is what the game needs, all it will lead to is keeping the same maybe 500 players (20 kds) entertained. Utopia should be a rewarding experience for those other players as well. The answer to, for example, the whole landdrop debate shouldn't be "You must get big, if you can't get big you SUCK" it might be valid that those kingdoms suck from a top kd perspective, but that is irrelevant to those kingdoms; from their own perspective these kingdoms have no way in hell to preserve their acres, so the option they get is lose honor landdropping, or be fed on by better/pumped/more ready kingdoms while taking well over a week (or worse, weeks) to build up, either way they get weaker/punished for doing well in war, it's plain weird. Simply getting the bigs to be small would only take the 4 days eow protection. That really is a sucky choice to give. (true, there was abuse as well, but that could have been dealt with in another way)

But even that is minor to the real problem i started this post with. Currently the gap between the have (kds that have 20 (yeah, plenty kds keep 20 players it seems) to 25 reliable players) and have nots (kds with a solid core of 10 to 15 players, desperately waiting for fresh blood) is gigantic. New players tend to land in the have not kds, they are confronted with the worst that the game has to offer without any guidance or assistance from the game or game mechanics.

Bottom line: The game will die not because it doesn't cater enough to the top, it'll die because the top will be all that's left while time passes by. Not everyone can afford to be a top "athlete", for some the game is just a means to pass time. The game is setup great for casual play like that (apart from lacking guidance and such, at its base logging in a few minutes during the day is enough), the game (mechanics) just got perverted (landdropping is such a perversion) as the majority of the players are hardcore athletes willing to go to extremes to squeez out those few percentiles of better performance, making the game not very enjoyable for those lost casual souls. I feel a full reshuffle of kingdoms/provinces would work wonders. I also know this would be impossible as most of the kingdoms are established in one way or another, no one wants to lose their friends to a reshuffle, and one way or another, people will trade back to play together.

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Boing

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Originally Posted by stoffi

Lol. And lol.

People gave up long ago because Absalom were invinsible.

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People gave up a long time ago because Jolt ground the game into the ground with idiot decisions and criminally corrupt management ....... Blaming Abs is ridiculous

Could blame HaLL for starting the rot with their target sharing forums and "we don't give a **** how badly we wreck your ghetto Kingdom to protect our bad boy image" attitude, you blame Abs for power playing Kingdoms when HaLL did the same thing ....... stop throwing stone in this glass house stoffi and grow up

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Originally Posted by jdorje

Which they've never won. If they were the best warring kingdom (possible), and that crown was relevant (it's not), don't you think they would have won it at some point?

War win crown is just a competition to see who can get the most wars.

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SPGC cant win ww crown because we cant get 8 wars in an age. simple as that. Now, that doesnt mean we are the best warring kd, which I hope we aren't, and I certainly dont think we are either :)

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Originally Posted by prot

Perhaps it is possible BiO lost because they where outmatched in activity/strategy rather than setup? Dwarf cleric was hands down the best pick last age but just because you pick dwarf cleric it doesn't mean you'll auto win your wars.

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I'm not gonna hint at the reasons as to why we beat bio, but I can tell you I think dorf cleric is silly :)

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Originally Posted by stoffi

Realest, guys who stop at nothing at getting attention towards how good and skilled they are, going their own ways in everything(lol, his post above mine shows exactly what I'm talking about. A need to point at how good and "veteran" he is by mentioning that he is offered having no peers).

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Nevr heard of the guy. I've been here since 98 also did he play under a different name?

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Originally Posted by American Badass

Nevr heard of the guy. I've been here since 98 also did he play under a different name?

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You've been living under a rock.

There are plenty of great warring kds out there, such as mine and a few we have fought over the past ages (not naming my kd/isnt important) that are not really known for the simple fact that the "popular" or "top" kds get all the coverage and war stories. Maybe if the utopia news team would get off utopias "popular kds" n**s and search out there for some talent that is indeed there. the kds would have better recruiting and would then get the respect they in fact deserve.

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Originally Posted by GotCha

There are plenty of great warring kds out there, such as mine and a few we have fought over the past ages (not naming my kd/isnt important) that are not really known for the simple fact that the "popular" or "top" kds get all the coverage and war stories. Maybe if the utopia news team would get off utopias "popular kds" n**s and search out there for some talent that is indeed there. the kds would have better recruiting and would then get the respect they in fact deserve.

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Were one of your 3 posts contacting the news team so they could cover your war?

I believe my monarch tryed to get your news team, to cover 2-3 wars last age. One wich we were told they would and saw nothing. And bishop i wouldnt smack talk to someone unless u know who they actually are or how long they have played. I usually just read and not post. That is what my monarchs job is (such as asking news team to cover wars)

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Originally Posted by Retailer

Divinity tried this age to war a few abs kd's. Mostly POLITICS is what has stopped us. Getting caught in a bad war and PEWPEW not wanting to backoff has lead to a huge acre-gap which makes warring them near impossible.

That said and staying top 40-50 in size and warring 5-6-7 times was more fun. Not cause its ghettobashing but cause it was more warring less politics and ALSO more challenging. AND usually the wars are around same size +-5%.
Top 3 most challenging and difficult wars and close-calls we've had is from "down in the ghetto levels" for example vs Freeakstyle.

The SKILL required to play top level is not that much greater compared to the time it drains.

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Id really recommend trying again with a setup that doesn't pretty much assure that you will fall behind abs. Obviously charting isn't as much fun when after 2 weeks it's clear you ahve no shot at even competing with the top kd's, but that's true for all levels of the game. For example, Divinity is a solid war-kd, but if you'd found you were unable to compete as a war kd would you not try to improve your setup or your strategy so that you could stop losing so badly?

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Originally Posted by TeddybearSTHLM

I'm not gonna hint at the reasons as to why we beat bio, but I can tell you I think dorf cleric is silly :)

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Quite frankly I wasn't trying to bash Cats, more so defending the dwarf/cleric setup :). IMO it was the best core setup last age and with good strategy pretty much unbeatable unless facing a mirror setup.

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Originally Posted by GotCha

I believe my monarch tryed to get your news team, to cover 2-3 wars last age. One wich we were told they would and saw nothing. And bishop i wouldnt smack talk to someone unless u know who they actually are or how long they have played. I usually just read and not post. That is what my monarchs job is (such as asking news team to cover wars)

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Whos talking smack? If you want a war covered just PM someone on the news team or drop by irc. The team are always looking for more reporters though.

Sorry mabe i missread but seemed u were being a smart a..... with ur comment. My apology if i was in fact wrong. Maybe i should look into joining for i do find myself with spare time on my hands. But that means i wouldnt be able to type on my tablet ;(

Ofc topsy. But yeah we might have focused on a warring setup and lacked the "growing" setup. i.e. merchants or dwarves. But goal was to score one of the abs kd's by mid-age and war them. We really just wanted new and different wars. The main difference up here is not the wars... its the politics around the wars. That is the point i was trying to bring up =) I dont for a second think that the players in the top5 kd's are better or the leaders more skilled than that of for example SPGC or FS. What i do think is that they are better politicians =)

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Originally Posted by prot

Quite frankly I wasn't trying to bash Cats, more so defending the dwarf/cleric setup :). IMO it was the best core setup last age and with good strategy pretty much unbeatable unless facing a mirror setup.

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I know, and I didnt take it as catbashing :)

it's just funny cause most kds we beat last age were dwarf heavy. HoH was all dorf core and 2 other kds had mostly dwarfs.

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Originally Posted by Retailer

Ofc topsy. But yeah we might have focused on a warring setup and lacked the "growing" setup. i.e. merchants or dwarves. But goal was to score one of the abs kd's by mid-age and war them. We really just wanted new and different wars. The main difference up here is not the wars... its the politics around the wars. That is the point i was trying to bring up =) I dont for a second think that the players in the top5 kd's are better or the leaders more skilled than that of for example SPGC or FS. What i do think is that they are better politicians =)

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This, our setup could whore just fine, and we were catching up with rage/hoh in acres right up until we fought pewpew. Our attackers started the age 20% smaller than all of abs+pulse+simians and with the exception of a few players we whored right up right on par with any top kd. Bad political moves like not forcing pulse to war us instead of rage,fighting pewpew at all, and the nw drop against brainstorm and then getting hit in war while pewpew purposely farmed out to rage derailed us from being in a position to war the top few mid age. But then again we never tried to do politics in the same manor.

I'll put this question out there then, Palem if u wanted more kds to "compete" why not use TFC to do that. Even if u cant war u could very much slow the growth of a "top" kd and give free acres to kds that u judge as valid competition. You could have war'ed pulse eariler in the age to give them an acre boost. How about being suicidal and hit into my kd right now, your in nw range for war, give us 15 points and then dont withdraw untill a forced WW happens. Would instantly launch us up to compete with HoH & either a win there or beating u badly enough lets us war sanc depending on how many acres we can get on fearies+killers. Point is thats a "political" issue that would instantly cause chaos, and thats what most kds are willing to mess around with. Not doing that doesnt mean your "worse" it just means u dont wanna do it.

Im not sure why you think warring the only other competative non-abs kd this age would have helped you that early in the age, especially when we'd just gotten out of beating mercy and were larger and more pumped. Even after rage beat us they were 50k+ acres behind sanc/HoH. If you'd managed to win, you would havev been in that position or worse, with no wizzies, and sanc/HoH/Rage would have gobbled you up and we'd all be in the same position.

And the problem with orc/tact/cleric setups isn't about being able to hit random provinces for acres(almost anything can do that on the right dr), its about not having the ability to pump rapidly/be fully pumped within eowcf(something big this age due to what war gives you) and not having the ability to turtle. Orcs also have a much worse late/mid game than what others went(SoS some of the HoH 10k acre humans). Warring is all fun and good, and if you really can beat top kds like rage/sanc even when they have much larger advantages than you in war then that lets you compete well, but don't think that the reason you never got to face the people you were after was "just political". It was strategic, which is what Palem is getting at.

Yuck, I would hate to war with humans this age. Al that extra NW..............

/me shudders at what an orc KD with 25% military on all their core would do to a human core.....

that said, and Orc KD would not fare as well in the top because it can't whore up as effectively. So again, the inherent differences between warring opponants in your range, vs going for the top are very clear.

Prot,

Dwarf Cleric sucked in war. They were so easy to chain out it was laughable. They simply could not hold onto offense and recovery form a chain in war was something that they never seemed to do well. Now, perhaps BB has some elite strategy for holding onto their offense that BiO and the other KDs with dwarf cores don't know, but I am fairly convinced that cleric's are so overrated in a 4+ day war that its laughable. They are slightly better than warriors at hanging in there at best.

The problem with people who like dwarves is they plan them based on all the stuff that their BE and free buildings can do for them. They never plan with them as to what happens to them when they have no buildings.............

Sheister, HoH has 43% military on their humans on top of all the other goodies. And yeah, if they weren't using cleric to make chains fail then they were doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Topsy

Sheister, HoH has 43% military on their humans on top of all the other goodies. And yeah, if they weren't using cleric to make chains fail then they were doing it wrong.

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I am sure they do Topsy, my main concern (and no I have not calc'd it) is with the added NW form the pop and all elites Orcs at 25% have max gains because of their +30% racial and with the NW staying on those humans longer, it means much much deeper chains (I think). So I would anticipate far more pain on the human side of that battle. But again, I did not calc it, but it looks icky at first blush.

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Originally Posted by Topsy

Im not sure why you think warring the only other competative non-abs kd this age would have helped you that early in the age, especially when we'd just gotten out of beating mercy and were larger and more pumped. Even after rage beat us they were 50k+ acres behind sanc/HoH. If you'd managed to win, you would havev been in that position or worse, with no wizzies, and sanc/HoH/Rage would have gobbled you up and we'd all be in the same position.

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We stayed within ~20k acres of rage untill pewpew hit us in war and then horribly farmed out to rage. We were just small enough to keep them off us and our cf's should of kept us from being horribly vultured. Had we forced a war with u guys and won the WW bonus of getting leet credits could have pushed us into a position to war/beat rage. Im not saying we would have won but when i took intell of u, us, rage i thought we'd have a better chance to win against u than u did against rage. Even Jdojre msged me saying he expected u guys to try to come after us for a war+win to avoid rage in hopes on an easier war. Looking back that was probably a mistake, but after talking with flogger its one i'd have my kd make again.

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Originally Posted by Topsy

And the problem with orc/tact/cleric setups isn't about being able to hit random provinces for acres(almost anything can do that on the right dr), its about not having the ability to pump rapidly/be fully pumped within eowcf(something big this age due to what war gives you) and not having the ability to turtle. Orcs also have a much worse late/mid game than what others went(SoS some of the HoH 10k acre humans). Warring is all fun and good, and if you really can beat top kds like rage/sanc even when they have much larger advantages than you in war then that lets you compete well, but don't think that the reason you never got to face the people you were after was "just political". It was strategic, which is what Palem is getting at.

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Eh, i've seen my orcs on 500bpa and baron honor utterly cursh humans sages on 2000+ bpa before, not saying we'd do it against hoh but its not an auto loss. Nor is their science that good, i've don SoS on a few and i wasnt that impressed, most of the "top" inst even above 100 bpa. Good science is and advantage but if the potlitics of the top were different such that had rage+sanc+hoh had to fight couldn't sit at 40% draft and pump science this age it would be much different. For example had rage/sanc been on a 48 hour notice sanc could not have waved the warrior princess kd. That would keep more "competition" in the top.

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Originally Posted by Topsy

Sheister, HoH has 43% military on their humans on top of all the other goodies. And yeah, if they weren't using cleric to make chains fail then they were doing it wrong.

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Chaining clearics last age was easy, u just cant do it like most top kds do all in 1-2 hours.

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Originally Posted by stoffi

People gave up long ago because Absalom were invinsible.

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Lol. And lol.
The alliance that doesn't win the majority of the time is invincible?

You're a perfect example of the problem stoffi. You tried to challenge Abs and you lost. So instead of challenging yourself to get better, you just quit because that's easier.

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Originally Posted by prot

What excuses? How is that even relevant to me telling you to start with your own kingdom?
TFC is getting better every age because it's pretty hard to make it get worse...

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Speaking of relevant, how is telling me that I run a 25 faery kd relevant to me asking people to get better?
You're attacking the messenger, not the message.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

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Originally Posted by prot

You're contradicting yourself.. you keep telling others to accept your challenge and improve, while at the same time you decline that same challenge and hide behind a "TFC is meant for fun" excuse, gg.

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I'm not contradicting anything.
A smoker telling another smoker to quit smoking is good advice.
A fat person telling another fat person to start exercising is good advice.

Regardless, I haven't once said that TFC is above my challenge. I have, on many occasions in this very thread commented on how we're not good and need to improve. What I WON'T do is run another race because then that's not TFC it's just another kd and I'm better off just building a NEW kd, which will happen eventually.

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Originally Posted by prot

TFC is sitting on a solid record of 0 wars so far. Having fun are you? ;)

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Yes. We have loads of fun.

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Originally Posted by prot

You need to win by a large surplus to make it worthwhile. If ya don't, you'll be wrecked from a war with barely preparation for another fight against a kingdom who had plenty of time to prepare.
Even with the big acre gain vs Rage, we had money issues for our fight against Mercy EOA. Mercy had more than twice the amount of gold we had for dragons/wages etc. And we where lucky Rage didn't chain any of our provinces deeply.

If you add the fortified time, the war and the eow cf all together, you need to win quite a bit to make warring worthwhile. Most of the times it isn't more profitable then whoring (as whoring allows you to be in a pumpbuild for wpa/sci etc)

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Fair enough, but my point was that you CAN war to a crown. BiO did it, BeastBlood did it. Copping out behind "I want to war so going for a crown is stupid" is not an acceptable excuse.

Also this massive multi-post is bad. Please don't do that again.

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Originally Posted by Persain

I'll put this question out there then, Palem if u wanted more kds to "compete" why not use TFC to do that. Even if u cant war u could very much slow the growth of a "top" kd and give free acres to kds that u judge as valid competition. You could have war'ed pulse eariler in the age to give them an acre boost. How about being suicidal and hit into my kd right now, your in nw range for war, give us 15 points and then dont withdraw untill a forced WW happens. Would instantly launch us up to compete with HoH & either a win there or beating u badly enough lets us war sanc depending on how many acres we can get on fearies+killers. Point is thats a "political" issue that would instantly cause chaos, and thats what most kds are willing to mess around with. Not doing that doesnt mean your "worse" it just means u dont wanna do it.

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I'll tackle this in two parts.
1. My kd is not a tool for someone else's success. I'm not going to sabotage my kd so another kd could do better. That's cheap, dirty, and generally lame game play. I hope this was more of a hypothetical than a serious suggestion because I expect a little more out of you than that Persain. Simians did that and everyone judged them appropriately.
2. The goal of this isn't to "topple" any particular kd or alliance. I said in the OP that Abs is not the problem. It's the quality of the kds around that's the problem. How would letting Divinity farm out TFC to get a massive boost in acres do anything towards making Divinity a better kd? You don't learn any better strategy. You don't learn how to whore any better. You don't really learn anything other than that you can catch up to abs with the help of another party who's willing to dump a ton of acres on you. I want people to be able to compete on their own, the right way.

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Originally Posted by Palem

1. My kd is not a tool for someone else's success. I'm not going to sabotage my kd so another kd could do better. That's cheap, dirty, and generally lame game play. I hope this was more of a hypothetical than a serious suggestion because I expect a little more out of you than that Persain. Simians did that and everyone judged them appropriately.
2. The goal of this isn't to "topple" any particular kd or alliance. I said in the OP that Abs is not the problem. It's the quality of the kds around that's the problem. How would letting Divinity farm out TFC to get a massive boost in acres do anything towards making Divinity a better kd? You don't learn any better strategy. You don't learn how to whore any better. You don't really learn anything other than that you can catch up to abs with the help of another party who's willing to dump a ton of acres on you. I want people to be able to compete on their own, the right way.

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Perhaps I’m not that good at sarcasm, i dont want "help" from TFC or any kd. Nor do I think that you guys should help anyone. What I meant was anyone can “compete” in the top and anyone can impact top play its not hard, just get big and try. If I noticed pulse right now (as I could via our “official” cf) and they won would anyone question their win because I lost and was stupid. Look at pewpew v rage, I don’t see anyone claiming rage should give the acres back. No, capitalizing bad play from weaker opponents is how u win at the mid tier and the “top” tier.

Thing is what are you or anyone willing to do to participate. TFC plays insanely passively had u guys EVER tried to play aggressive, u know slow another kds growth, attack a bit hurt them then u guys could/would be “competitive”. Sure u wouldn’t win but u’d make an impact, heck u could probably of even gotten a free wave off of a few kds. If enough kds simply “grew” and actively fought with acres in mind they don’t all have to win, but there’d be enough competition to lower the feeding and schemeing to make warring the more important issue. The best way to encourage the kds u want to compete is to show how well u can do with a “bad” strategy. But that’s not your goal, u aren’t using a bad strategy because its fun to compete, your using it to “be big.”

As its been pointed out being big isn’t hard when only a few kds care about it u need to do better than LAST place to show how easy it is. Thats what I meant to point out making an impact on top play is also easy if you dont care about acres, i mean here just farm out and boom instant impact on top play. But want to change people’s mind show them how easy it is to compete not just “be big.” Fyi i thought it was more impressive for u guys to war last age than get top 10 the age before that.

Persain, now you know why play for land is more harder and value from warring, because there is so many complicated factors. You cant success from first age its take more time to adapt.
Palem, how i told already TFC is not real kd, because its not factor for chart. When you cant wave other kds you cant out grow another land competitors so rest land based kds don't bother to hit you. When you wont declare war there is zero reason for any WW kd to hit you too. Its what give TFC more or less stable/safe grow every age but this is not competition. If you want to be part from real competition you need to use proper setup not 25 FA, but this take a lot more time.
There is another simple solution: Leave abs/hoh alone for 3 ages in land chart. After it they will be complete bored and disband :)