Removal of KNRG

[WolfDGrey]

EDIT: It's also nice to see you've glazed over all my points that are valid to the discussion

you're a black pot!

[Swirvin' Birds]

Jesus. Your 24 provinces should be able to handle 1 stinking province. If you can't then your kingdom obviously sucks. Quit complaining about 1 solitary dwarf that your kingdom of 24 can't handle. That is a kingdom problem. Not a KNRG problem.

And bottom feeding does not just apply to provinces. It applies to kingdoms as well. Which obviously by the use of the word ghetto is the case here.

[Toadi]

Your 24 provinces should be able to handle 1 stinking province.

KNRG - Reduces gains by 33%.
GB Protection - Reduces gains by 85%
Hits made by the SKD - Reduced by 90% overall

Hostility Status - Increased gains by 10%
Hits made by the loner - Increased by 10% overall

Overall, the big KD needs to make 11 hits just to even the losses made by 1 hit of the loner. This is a huge waste of time (costs land and money), and basically the reason why a single KD cannot compete against a big loner in a ghetto. It is not a kingdom problem, it is just that the game mechanics heavily favour the selfish provinces in ghettoes.

Furthermore, KNRG do not protect ghettoes from big kingdoms. Big kingdoms do not hit the regular ghetto provinces. They just hit the useless T/M that does nothing but Paradise all day and sits on 7K acres while his kingdommates are 1K, unable to get into decent wars because of this. I mean, last time I randomed into a loner like this I even received a thankful message from the kingdom's monarch.

[nfidel2k]

So then find another way to penalize those provinces. Suggest something useful. The scenarios that keep repeatedly being brought up to argue against KRNG (or change it) are instances of top KDs complaining that they can't bottomfeed because of it. That's the point of KRNG. If you don't want it affecting you, play in the middle or try the bottom out.

[_greenie]

So then find another way to penalize those provinces. Suggest something useful. The scenarios that keep repeatedly being brought up to argue against KRNG (or change it) are instances of top KDs complaining that they can't bottomfeed because of it. That's the point of KRNG.

make KRNG similar to prov nw gains
so a big kd hitting a small kd get -33% gains
and the small kd hitting the big kd also gets -33% gains
hitting a kd your size gives normal gains =)

but it has to be done such that hitting a kd 50% your size, the gain reduction is the same as hitting a kd 200% your size

If you don't want it affecting you, play in the middle or try the bottom out.

wow... so, if you dont like a broken game mechanic, play in a manner that isnt affected by it?

[WolfDGrey]

So then find another way to penalize those provinces.

Yaaaaaaaaa!
That's what we try to say, if I'm not allowed to hit into small kingdoms... fine, I can handle my sized ones.

But for gods sake don't give out my land for free to somebody who's place first hand is not in the ghetto, secondly he's a selfish moron who's hurting his own kingdom.

It's supposed to be a kingdom vs kingdom game.

[nfidel2k]

So neither of you understood my post. Find another way to penalize the province that is hurting his KD by being oversized.

How many of this type of player are there in Utopia? Four, maybe five? And most aren't even interested in the top KDs until the top KDs made it their personal mission to hit them.

wow... so, if you dont like a broken game mechanic, play in a manner that isnt affected by it?

So the only way you can have fun playing Utopia is by trying to be the biggest province/kd in the game? Maybe you need your own server, where you can explore to your heart's content. But don't call the game mechanic broken because it affects you while you're at the top.

[Swirvin' Birds]

Toadi. It's not all about acres. Your losses and damage are spread out among several provinces. His are not. I still say if your whole kingdom can not handle 1 province of similar size then your doing something wrong.

Furthermore, KNRG do not protect ghettoes from big kingdoms. Big kingdoms do not hit the regular ghetto provinces.

Not all do but I have seen it done many many times. I have seen decent kingdoms turn into ghettos from big kingdoms doing multiple waves on small kingdoms. Cheap free acres. Why make this more prevalent? Which is what will happen if removed.

I agree with Greeny. Should be more balanced there but I still believe the smaller hitting the bigger should get better rewarded. More risk, more reward. Less risk, less reward.

[WolfDGrey]

More risk, more reward. Less risk, less reward.

There is no risk hitting the bigger atm. As Toadi said, takes much more effort for the bigger to get even with the smaller, and that makes it more risky to hit somebody in a ghetto than in a decent kingdom.

[BladeMaster]

I still say if your whole kingdom can not handle 1 province of similar size then your doing something wrong.

More risk, more reward. Less risk, less reward.

no risk in hitting bigger all the risk is in hitting smaller, since they are the ones who gget all the benefits :)
i loled.
there are plenty of reasons why a kd doesnt gain anything from dealing with one big ghetto loner... and the #1 amoug them is the big ghetto prov gets no penalties.
the way of stopping people from outgrowing there kd is non existant, so ultimately people will outgrow there kd, and if they are going to do this, why should they be protected?
give them gb pro, have knrg effect both kds equally, and address topfeeding!

its been knows for a long time knrg doesnt actually help a kd, it helps loners, because we nolonger have so many kds whose sole aim is to beat up kds who are <50% of there size.

why should a loner get a bonus, when 20 people working together get nothing?
is this suddenly nolonger a team game? did something change while i was sleeping?

there are lots of things that should be done, and one is addressing the issue of the lack of teamwork within utopia, we should stop rewarding the greedy loners and start trying to make utopia a game where people can benefit from working together.
gb pro has always and will always be enough. no need to have additional onesided systems inplace doing the same thing to protect for an event that nolonger happens.

[Ishandra]

Can we end this thread and start a new "Balancing Single provinces in small KDs against Entire Large KDs".

There must be something outside of KNRG that would have a positive impact if it were changed/implemented.

[_greenie]

Can we end this thread and start a new "Balancing Single provinces in small KDs against Entire Large KDs".

There must be something outside of KNRG that would have a positive impact if it were changed/implemented.

just make KNRG work both ways =)

example:
3 provs, all 3k acres, all 500k nw (arbitrary numbers taken from around now)
Prov A: 12 mil nw kd
Prov B: 11 mil nw kd
Prov C: 4 mil nw kd
Prov D: 4.5 mil nw kd

Prov A hitting Prov B, will net ~270-300 acres
Prov B hitting Prov A, about the same

Prov A or B hitting Prov C, will net ~180-200 acres
Prov C hitting Prov A or B, will net ~180-200 acres, rather than the 400 or so you get now

Prov C hits Prov D, gains ~270-300 acres

[Ishandra]

But B hitting A will get more acres.

This is the kind of example people were complaining about, claiming smaller KDs in war had an advantage and thus wanted to remove KNRG. (EDIT: I'm not against KNRG here, I think it is fair as it balances for the power of being larger)

I agree it looks good, but why would Prov A hit Prov B where he could be retalled by ANY of Prov Bs KDmates, when he could hit Prov C and only have to worry about a retal from 1?

The gains need to be ~1/10-1/20 to make it balanced surely?

[_greenie]

But B hitting A will get more acres.

This is the kind of example people were complaining about, claiming smaller KDs in war had an advantage and thus wanted to remove KNRG. (EDIT: I'm not against KNRG here, I think it is fair as it balances for the power of being larger)

er... with <10% nw difference between A & B's kd, gain difference should be almost negligable (like hitting 110-90% prov nw)

I agree it looks good, but why would Prov A hit Prov B where he could be retalled by ANY of Prov Bs KDmates, when he could hit Prov C and only have to worry about a retal from 1?

The gains need to be ~1/10-1/20 to make it balanced surely?

i was just running with the -33% (apparently) gains that KNRG gives atm =)
maybe drop it down to -50% for hitting kd 50% your nw, and -33% for hitting a kd 200% your nw? so balance is there more for people hitting up, but they dont get the + gains they would normally get

[Ishandra]

Thats still effectively a + gains though. 200 acres originally, goes down to 100 for the bigger but 133 for the smaller. The same problem people are describing above still happens. (Not a problem for me, but a problem for the others arguing)

And with the 10% NW difference, those were around the numbers being used a couple pages ago.

But again, why hit a province where his whole KD can retal when you can hit a province that has only his own army to retal? KNRG is that deterrent.

If anything, making KNRG stronger (while applying a smaller reduction when hitting upwards) is the answer surely?

That way, even if the numbers are skewed in favour of either KD, it will not be efficient over say exploring or hitting in your KD NW range.