Game Needs More Good kds Competing

[Topsy]

Divinity tried this age to war a few abs kd's. Mostly POLITICS is what has stopped us. Getting caught in a bad war and PEWPEW not wanting to backoff has lead to a huge acre-gap which makes warring them near impossible.

That said and staying top 40-50 in size and warring 5-6-7 times was more fun. Not cause its ghettobashing but cause it was more warring less politics and ALSO more challenging. AND usually the wars are around same size +-5%.
Top 3 most challenging and difficult wars and close-calls we've had is from "down in the ghetto levels" for example vs Freeakstyle.

The SKILL required to play top level is not that much greater compared to the time it drains.

Id really recommend trying again with a setup that doesn't pretty much assure that you will fall behind abs. Obviously charting isn't as much fun when after 2 weeks it's clear you ahve no shot at even competing with the top kd's, but that's true for all levels of the game. For example, Divinity is a solid war-kd, but if you'd found you were unable to compete as a war kd would you not try to improve your setup or your strategy so that you could stop losing so badly?

[protector]

I'm not gonna hint at the reasons as to why we beat bio, but I can tell you I think dorf cleric is silly :)

Quite frankly I wasn't trying to bash Cats, more so defending the dwarf/cleric setup :). IMO it was the best core setup last age and with good strategy pretty much unbeatable unless facing a mirror setup.

[Bishop]

I believe my monarch tryed to get your news team, to cover 2-3 wars last age. One wich we were told they would and saw nothing. And bishop i wouldnt smack talk to someone unless u know who they actually are or how long they have played. I usually just read and not post. That is what my monarchs job is (such as asking news team to cover wars)

Whos talking smack? If you want a war covered just PM someone on the news team or drop by irc. The team are always looking for more reporters though.

[GotCha]

Sorry mabe i missread but seemed u were being a smart a..... with ur comment. My apology if i was in fact wrong. Maybe i should look into joining for i do find myself with spare time on my hands. But that means i wouldnt be able to type on my tablet ;(

[Retailer]

Ofc topsy. But yeah we might have focused on a warring setup and lacked the "growing" setup. i.e. merchants or dwarves. But goal was to score one of the abs kd's by mid-age and war them. We really just wanted new and different wars. The main difference up here is not the wars... its the politics around the wars. That is the point i was trying to bring up =) I dont for a second think that the players in the top5 kd's are better or the leaders more skilled than that of for example SPGC or FS. What i do think is that they are better politicians =)

[TeddybearSTHLM]

Quite frankly I wasn't trying to bash Cats, more so defending the dwarf/cleric setup :). IMO it was the best core setup last age and with good strategy pretty much unbeatable unless facing a mirror setup.

I know, and I didnt take it as catbashing :)

it's just funny cause most kds we beat last age were dwarf heavy. HoH was all dorf core and 2 other kds had mostly dwarfs.

[Persain]

Ofc topsy. But yeah we might have focused on a warring setup and lacked the "growing" setup. i.e. merchants or dwarves. But goal was to score one of the abs kd's by mid-age and war them. We really just wanted new and different wars. The main difference up here is not the wars... its the politics around the wars. That is the point i was trying to bring up =) I dont for a second think that the players in the top5 kd's are better or the leaders more skilled than that of for example SPGC or FS. What i do think is that they are better politicians =)

This, our setup could whore just fine, and we were catching up with rage/hoh in acres right up until we fought pewpew. Our attackers started the age 20% smaller than all of abs+pulse+simians and with the exception of a few players we whored right up right on par with any top kd. Bad political moves like not forcing pulse to war us instead of rage,fighting pewpew at all, and the nw drop against brainstorm and then getting hit in war while pewpew purposely farmed out to rage derailed us from being in a position to war the top few mid age. But then again we never tried to do politics in the same manor.

I'll put this question out there then, Palem if u wanted more kds to "compete" why not use TFC to do that. Even if u cant war u could very much slow the growth of a "top" kd and give free acres to kds that u judge as valid competition. You could have war'ed pulse eariler in the age to give them an acre boost. How about being suicidal and hit into my kd right now, your in nw range for war, give us 15 points and then dont withdraw untill a forced WW happens. Would instantly launch us up to compete with HoH & either a win there or beating u badly enough lets us war sanc depending on how many acres we can get on fearies+killers. Point is thats a "political" issue that would instantly cause chaos, and thats what most kds are willing to mess around with. Not doing that doesnt mean your "worse" it just means u dont wanna do it.

[Topsy]

Im not sure why you think warring the only other competative non-abs kd this age would have helped you that early in the age, especially when we'd just gotten out of beating mercy and were larger and more pumped. Even after rage beat us they were 50k+ acres behind sanc/HoH. If you'd managed to win, you would havev been in that position or worse, with no wizzies, and sanc/HoH/Rage would have gobbled you up and we'd all be in the same position.

And the problem with orc/tact/cleric setups isn't about being able to hit random provinces for acres(almost anything can do that on the right dr), its about not having the ability to pump rapidly/be fully pumped within eowcf(something big this age due to what war gives you) and not having the ability to turtle. Orcs also have a much worse late/mid game than what others went(SoS some of the HoH 10k acre humans). Warring is all fun and good, and if you really can beat top kds like rage/sanc even when they have much larger advantages than you in war then that lets you compete well, but don't think that the reason you never got to face the people you were after was "just political". It was strategic, which is what Palem is getting at.

[Sheister]

Yuck, I would hate to war with humans this age. Al that extra NW..............

/me shudders at what an orc KD with 25% military on all their core would do to a human core.....

that said, and Orc KD would not fare as well in the top because it can't whore up as effectively. So again, the inherent differences between warring opponants in your range, vs going for the top are very clear.

Prot,

Dwarf Cleric sucked in war. They were so easy to chain out it was laughable. They simply could not hold onto offense and recovery form a chain in war was something that they never seemed to do well. Now, perhaps BB has some elite strategy for holding onto their offense that BiO and the other KDs with dwarf cores don't know, but I am fairly convinced that cleric's are so overrated in a 4+ day war that its laughable. They are slightly better than warriors at hanging in there at best.

The problem with people who like dwarves is they plan them based on all the stuff that their BE and free buildings can do for them. They never plan with them as to what happens to them when they have no buildings.............

[Topsy]

Sheister, HoH has 43% military on their humans on top of all the other goodies. And yeah, if they weren't using cleric to make chains fail then they were doing it wrong.

[Sheister]

Sheister, HoH has 43% military on their humans on top of all the other goodies. And yeah, if they weren't using cleric to make chains fail then they were doing it wrong.

I am sure they do Topsy, my main concern (and no I have not calc'd it) is with the added NW form the pop and all elites Orcs at 25% have max gains because of their +30% racial and with the NW staying on those humans longer, it means much much deeper chains (I think). So I would anticipate far more pain on the human side of that battle. But again, I did not calc it, but it looks icky at first blush.

[Persain]

Im not sure why you think warring the only other competative non-abs kd this age would have helped you that early in the age, especially when we'd just gotten out of beating mercy and were larger and more pumped. Even after rage beat us they were 50k+ acres behind sanc/HoH. If you'd managed to win, you would havev been in that position or worse, with no wizzies, and sanc/HoH/Rage would have gobbled you up and we'd all be in the same position.

We stayed within ~20k acres of rage untill pewpew hit us in war and then horribly farmed out to rage. We were just small enough to keep them off us and our cf's should of kept us from being horribly vultured. Had we forced a war with u guys and won the WW bonus of getting leet credits could have pushed us into a position to war/beat rage. Im not saying we would have won but when i took intell of u, us, rage i thought we'd have a better chance to win against u than u did against rage. Even Jdojre msged me saying he expected u guys to try to come after us for a war+win to avoid rage in hopes on an easier war. Looking back that was probably a mistake, but after talking with flogger its one i'd have my kd make again.

And the problem with orc/tact/cleric setups isn't about being able to hit random provinces for acres(almost anything can do that on the right dr), its about not having the ability to pump rapidly/be fully pumped within eowcf(something big this age due to what war gives you) and not having the ability to turtle. Orcs also have a much worse late/mid game than what others went(SoS some of the HoH 10k acre humans). Warring is all fun and good, and if you really can beat top kds like rage/sanc even when they have much larger advantages than you in war then that lets you compete well, but don't think that the reason you never got to face the people you were after was "just political". It was strategic, which is what Palem is getting at.

Eh, i've seen my orcs on 500bpa and baron honor utterly cursh humans sages on 2000+ bpa before, not saying we'd do it against hoh but its not an auto loss. Nor is their science that good, i've don SoS on a few and i wasnt that impressed, most of the "top" inst even above 100 bpa. Good science is and advantage but if the potlitics of the top were different such that had rage+sanc+hoh had to fight couldn't sit at 40% draft and pump science this age it would be much different. For example had rage/sanc been on a 48 hour notice sanc could not have waved the warrior princess kd. That would keep more "competition" in the top.

Sheister, HoH has 43% military on their humans on top of all the other goodies. And yeah, if they weren't using cleric to make chains fail then they were doing it wrong.

Chaining clearics last age was easy, u just cant do it like most top kds do all in 1-2 hours.

[Palem]

People gave up long ago because Absalom were invinsible.

Lol. And lol.
The alliance that doesn't win the majority of the time is invincible?

You're a perfect example of the problem stoffi. You tried to challenge Abs and you lost. So instead of challenging yourself to get better, you just quit because that's easier.

What excuses? How is that even relevant to me telling you to start with your own kingdom?
TFC is getting better every age because it's pretty hard to make it get worse...

Speaking of relevant, how is telling me that I run a 25 faery kd relevant to me asking people to get better?
You're attacking the messenger, not the message.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

You're contradicting yourself.. you keep telling others to accept your challenge and improve, while at the same time you decline that same challenge and hide behind a "TFC is meant for fun" excuse, gg.

I'm not contradicting anything.
A smoker telling another smoker to quit smoking is good advice.
A fat person telling another fat person to start exercising is good advice.

Regardless, I haven't once said that TFC is above my challenge. I have, on many occasions in this very thread commented on how we're not good and need to improve. What I WON'T do is run another race because then that's not TFC it's just another kd and I'm better off just building a NEW kd, which will happen eventually.

TFC is sitting on a solid record of 0 wars so far. Having fun are you? ;)

Yes. We have loads of fun.

You need to win by a large surplus to make it worthwhile. If ya don't, you'll be wrecked from a war with barely preparation for another fight against a kingdom who had plenty of time to prepare.
Even with the big acre gain vs Rage, we had money issues for our fight against Mercy EOA. Mercy had more than twice the amount of gold we had for dragons/wages etc. And we where lucky Rage didn't chain any of our provinces deeply.

If you add the fortified time, the war and the eow cf all together, you need to win quite a bit to make warring worthwhile. Most of the times it isn't more profitable then whoring (as whoring allows you to be in a pumpbuild for wpa/sci etc)

Fair enough, but my point was that you CAN war to a crown. BiO did it, BeastBlood did it. Copping out behind "I want to war so going for a crown is stupid" is not an acceptable excuse.

Also this massive multi-post is bad. Please don't do that again.

I'll put this question out there then, Palem if u wanted more kds to "compete" why not use TFC to do that. Even if u cant war u could very much slow the growth of a "top" kd and give free acres to kds that u judge as valid competition. You could have war'ed pulse eariler in the age to give them an acre boost. How about being suicidal and hit into my kd right now, your in nw range for war, give us 15 points and then dont withdraw untill a forced WW happens. Would instantly launch us up to compete with HoH & either a win there or beating u badly enough lets us war sanc depending on how many acres we can get on fearies+killers. Point is thats a "political" issue that would instantly cause chaos, and thats what most kds are willing to mess around with. Not doing that doesnt mean your "worse" it just means u dont wanna do it.

I'll tackle this in two parts.
1. My kd is not a tool for someone else's success. I'm not going to sabotage my kd so another kd could do better. That's cheap, dirty, and generally lame game play. I hope this was more of a hypothetical than a serious suggestion because I expect a little more out of you than that Persain. Simians did that and everyone judged them appropriately.
2. The goal of this isn't to "topple" any particular kd or alliance. I said in the OP that Abs is not the problem. It's the quality of the kds around that's the problem. How would letting Divinity farm out TFC to get a massive boost in acres do anything towards making Divinity a better kd? You don't learn any better strategy. You don't learn how to whore any better. You don't really learn anything other than that you can catch up to abs with the help of another party who's willing to dump a ton of acres on you. I want people to be able to compete on their own, the right way.

[Persain]

1. My kd is not a tool for someone else's success. I'm not going to sabotage my kd so another kd could do better. That's cheap, dirty, and generally lame game play. I hope this was more of a hypothetical than a serious suggestion because I expect a little more out of you than that Persain. Simians did that and everyone judged them appropriately.
2. The goal of this isn't to "topple" any particular kd or alliance. I said in the OP that Abs is not the problem. It's the quality of the kds around that's the problem. How would letting Divinity farm out TFC to get a massive boost in acres do anything towards making Divinity a better kd? You don't learn any better strategy. You don't learn how to whore any better. You don't really learn anything other than that you can catch up to abs with the help of another party who's willing to dump a ton of acres on you. I want people to be able to compete on their own, the right way.

Perhaps I’m not that good at sarcasm, i dont want "help" from TFC or any kd. Nor do I think that you guys should help anyone. What I meant was anyone can “compete” in the top and anyone can impact top play its not hard, just get big and try. If I noticed pulse right now (as I could via our “official” cf) and they won would anyone question their win because I lost and was stupid. Look at pewpew v rage, I don’t see anyone claiming rage should give the acres back. No, capitalizing bad play from weaker opponents is how u win at the mid tier and the “top” tier.

Thing is what are you or anyone willing to do to participate. TFC plays insanely passively had u guys EVER tried to play aggressive, u know slow another kds growth, attack a bit hurt them then u guys could/would be “competitive”. Sure u wouldn’t win but u’d make an impact, heck u could probably of even gotten a free wave off of a few kds. If enough kds simply “grew” and actively fought with acres in mind they don’t all have to win, but there’d be enough competition to lower the feeding and schemeing to make warring the more important issue. The best way to encourage the kds u want to compete is to show how well u can do with a “bad” strategy. But that’s not your goal, u aren’t using a bad strategy because its fun to compete, your using it to “be big.”

As its been pointed out being big isn’t hard when only a few kds care about it u need to do better than LAST place to show how easy it is. Thats what I meant to point out making an impact on top play is also easy if you dont care about acres, i mean here just farm out and boom instant impact on top play. But want to change people’s mind show them how easy it is to compete not just “be big.” Fyi i thought it was more impressive for u guys to war last age than get top 10 the age before that.

[Elit]

Persain, now you know why play for land is more harder and value from warring, because there is so many complicated factors. You cant success from first age its take more time to adapt.
Palem, how i told already TFC is not real kd, because its not factor for chart. When you cant wave other kds you cant out grow another land competitors so rest land based kds don't bother to hit you. When you wont declare war there is zero reason for any WW kd to hit you too. Its what give TFC more or less stable/safe grow every age but this is not competition. If you want to be part from real competition you need to use proper setup not 25 FA, but this take a lot more time.
There is another simple solution: Leave abs/hoh alone for 3 ages in land chart. After it they will be complete bored and disband :)