Yea I don't know anyone in my kd or any of the kd's we warred last age who bothered to use MV.
Yea I don't know anyone in my kd or any of the kd's we warred last age who bothered to use MV.
lol... that wasnt my point and if thats the case you are probably doing it wrong...
How so? According to you it doesn't matter if both sides are active anyways...
well we can start with clearing ms off key provinces or TW pre chain but I don't plan to get into all the uses of mv here, I just want to challenge persain.
To say off sustainability is irrelevant because wars are decided by high deff provs is nonsense in its own league. Total off and total deff are relevant only in relation to eachother, not independently.
If you take into account that main cause for decrease of offense is combat loses, while big part (huge even on key "would be ub" provs) are ops, combat losses reduction effects (offensive ones in particular) have huge impact in war.
New players should take anything said by op with a grain of salt, some of his advice is legit, but theres a lot of crap.
And stay away from tactician, its hands down worst personality in game by far for anyone not aiming at 3 attacks a day.
Also Persian is right, RM is way more impactfull than CS, but only for attacker. IN case of tm provs, mystics in particular, CS is gamebreaker.
So much this.Originally Posted by citadela01
not touching with ten foot pole
I am going have to disagree with tact as the worst personality.
I think Tact works exceptionally well with UD. It gives CS (CS is better than no CS. MV is only 50% chance of removing and only strong caster can land MV with good success rate, so less other harmful spells like MS.) It gives the UD high utility on thievery being the #1 intel gatherer and never losing thieves on failed ops with 1 thief : D)
Reduced attack time vs military loss vs more fire power..it's a toss up and really how you think about it. I would say they are about the same.
Tactician is useful not because faster attacking is inherently better, but because Tactician allows for a province to run no barracks/qf and keep useful attack time. The value of attack time is not a linear boost, a given attack speed is either useful for some purpose or it isn't. (Although it should be noted that stacking Tactician with other speed reduction losses can be useful tactically than stacking Cleric with Hospitals is... for Warrior and Merchant, stacking their bonuses with other traits is more obvious.) A province can't always micromanage their prov to include barracks, but usually wants to wave in tight formation whenever possible, especially humans due to their army.
It's pretty obvious that the strongest badplay trope going is DURRR SUSTAIN and I have no interest in repeating what is obvious, but seriously, how many long wars are decided by attackers hitting big t/m? If big t/m are going down, it's because they're getting reduced via ops, or those big t/m by themselves aren't doing enough output to stop the smaller kingdom.
In situations where both kingdoms are depleted of economy and one side is Cleric, then yeah, the Clerics have an advantage core to core... but that situation isn't one that should happen if you want to be an effective kingdom, whether warring or growing, usually within a week of war, one side would have a substantial advantage economically. Even then, at that stage, what a kingdom has done with their provinces to date should have had meaning, and Clerics do less with outputs than Warrior or Sage, or Tactician if they are using the speed bonus effectively. If Warrior and Sage didn't output significantly more useful action over a week, a kingdom ought to ask themselves why and how that happened; sometimes it can't be helped, but part of playing the game is positioning provinces to utilize their assets as optimally as possible.
Going back to Tactician, I think they're not very good as an individual province, and on paper their stats just suck. They are however very nice if there's a purpose behind them.
For a sustainable personality on Orc or Avian, I'd rather go Merch than Cleric. Merch does a lot more to engineer situations which are favorable to an Orc kingdom, and performs well enough in long wars if a kingdom can supply soldiers.
Last edited by noobium; 14-05-2015 at 23:44.
pick someone offline, get chained attacker to cast MV a few times. 3 rogues do op runs "together" and boom cs doesnt help. Basically a worthless spell.
Now if your talking about having CS on a t/m or a high wpa a/m...sure thats completely different but no one should be going a/m and choosing tact.
I put in itallicies and ***'ed a false statement, many VERY good/effective kds plan setup's based around everyone is going to be gutted how to win after that.
As well I bold-ed the key statement in your "Argument" that cleric is bad. What you do with what you have is the key point. With that said given the current bonus's "attack fast" is less of a bonus than sustain...epically when on 100% unbuilt provs like a good portion of attackers end up in war.
Last edited by Persain; 15-05-2015 at 09:23.
No building effect from personality should be evaluated w/o considering diminishing returns effects and how it correlates with stacking same type of bonuses from buildings.
Simply translating given bonus into direct building effects starting from 0 buildings build is misleading.
ie:
average prov running say 80% BE:
tact 15% attack speed = ~15% buildings
cleric 40% combat losses = ~21% buildings
6% dont look too gamebreaking, but lets add hosps to the mix and say cleric includes 15% hosps in his build:
cleric combat losses reduction = 58.36%
tact trying to achieve same number would actually need ~42% hosps, 27% difference.
In another words he cant achieve it, cause it would be dumb to try. Same logic applies to warriors and tg's, sages and libs, merchants and banks.
Succesfull province is built by emphasizing one's strengths and stacking cumulative bonuses. Other personalities can do this but tactician cant since everybody just wants 12hs attack times. Unless going for 8hs and 3 attacks a day you should rly stay away from tact, its bad.
Yes CS is nice, and even accurate intel can be useful for ghetto player but its peanuts compared to what top personalities provide.
Top 3 personalities for gheto/warring tier attacker are sage, warrior and cleric in no particular order, since choice of one you use should be based on KD setup and not personal preference.
Merchant and WH are kinda iffy since they have some glaring weaknesses
Agree.
...
hospitals are not equivalent to barracks (or tg, or schools/libs, or any other rough personality equivalent) - i.e., combat losses may not be relevant to your province at all times, and attack time may not be relevant to your province.
everybody does not just want 12 hr attack times, that's a silly and limiting argument. i want attack times that are low enough for my purposes, not some arbitrary attack time that plays into what my opponent expects. also consider that barracks can't always be built, or aren't at maximum effectiveness, and that can lead to attack times drifting apart - which leads to further complications, especially for a human core.
i don't know why someone would pick a personality for attackers at the time attackers are at their weakest utility, instead of picking something which plays to attackers when attackers are strong, or something with better economic bonuses like Merch. there is some allowance for Dwarf or Human Clerics, but that's because both races would use elites to defend, and have other traits that work well with Cleric's bonuses. for Orcs or Avians, you'd be far better off picking Warrior or Merchant if the only concern is sustaining offense or economy, since both have traits that are useful in short wars, growth, and for Merchants rebuilding/pumping. i'd still argue that the only really good personality on Avian is Tactician anyway, just because of how strong Av/Tact speed can be when used properly. if people cannot think about how to use Av/Tact properly and think in terms of MOAR HITS, then yeah it sucks and they deserve to lose, but that's something that people can figure out i'd hope.
re: CS - its a small but non-trivial step to remove it via MV. if i'm really cautious and have control over logins, i'm going to jump on when i suspect an enemy would wave, so i can re-up my buffs and do all manner of trickery to stall an enemy wave. it's still not a guarantee, since a kingdom might just use NS to shred and i can't re-up 24/7. CS is not the reason i'd pick Tactician by itself, but it is a nice buff, along with not losing any thieves on intel (which will, over a long war, bleed a significant portion of starting thieves)
Last edited by noobium; 15-05-2015 at 19:37.
Cleric is more economy centered pers on high draft attacker than Merchant is even oow, and in war merch is pretty much crap. Bigger you get and deeper into the age you are more true this statement gets true.
Only times merch is superior is early in age, at low drafts, and in eowcf.
To imply cleric is not economy centered personality like you do just goes to show how little you know.
Ill repeat my advice to new players, take anything op says with grain of salt. His game knowledge is very limited.
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