Havoc vs AMA Round 2

[John Snowstorm]

I'm not sure if this has happened before, certainly I haven't seen someone get away with it so easily. Are you trying to say since it's happened before there is already precedent so we should already have been doing this every age? I do know that you guys have openly stated that you would dealbreak and gb other kd's this age, and yet have not said anything more than "they had it coming" in most threads/channels. It's hard to openly say "as a group we gb," have eoacf's generated pre-age between 2/3 of your alliance members and SWEA, say very little publicly or in-game about this, and then expect noone to think anything of it. I'm certain none of you wish that they did it, or had anything to do with the planning of it, but by doing nothing(or even saying anything) about it you condone their actions.

The most anyone said was that what havoc did last age would be done to them, how can anyone have it coming to them more than if they did it themselves.

And yes kingdoms have profited from GBs before, I particularly remember SG gaining a lot from waving into a GB in age 45 or so (whatever age it was that pulse won land) and they took a pretty extreme lead out of it, before the got deleted en masse for xlogging. I also never said it was ok because it hpapened before.

[JustinSane]

So Debauchery is ok with allies gb'ing into their war for crown acres? I honestly don't see how this isn't the biggest topic of the age. A kd is literally on the verge of crowning by hitting for acres into a war with their ally on the other side. The precedent that AMA/SWEA/PewPew/BB is setting is completely outrageous.

Please, stop crying. More than anything, your desperation and frustration that someone else beat you to their acres shines through. That said, Debauchery not only know why we did what we did, but also that it could have been easily avoided should they have wanted. In that sense, they themselves opted for the outcome, albeit by taking the gamble that we would not follow through on our word.

As for precedents, aren't you in Absalom, the alliance that always (re)writes rules up as they go (i.e. ad-hoc) to serve their needs and win ages? The day an infamous, deal breaking kingdom threatens you with double hostile, repeatedly refuses to CF and goes to war with another kingdom despite you telling them days in advance that you will hit them no matter what, feel free to hit them. Until then, stop crying like a baby.

Respectfully,

Justin.

[Topsy]

I would never steal acres from a kd by hitting into their war. Why would I be jealous that you did so? I would have been jealous if it was just PewPew having a fair 1v1 war that led to them generating war acres, of course you took that away from them.

And who exactly were they going to double hostile you with? Up to this age I have only been affiliated with non-abs kd's, just in the past they've normally not taken part or condoned things this shady, atleast without their being a gb or mass deletions.

edit: I think the fact that you think the only issue is that you "beat" others to the acres says it all.

[idiocy]

Jesus just gb SWEA already if you want to have any chance of winning.

[goodz]

Jesus just gb SWEA already if you want to have any chance of winning.

I have no doubt that if SWEA is unbeatable due to large size advantage they will get GB for the move. Its all very early why do people cry!

[Topsy]

Jesus just gb SWEA already if you want to have any chance of winning.

i don't even think we should have to GB. Their allies should tell them they need to intra-raze all acres generated from this.

[JustinSane]

I would never steal acres from a kd by hitting into their war. Why would I be jealous that you did so? I would have been jealous if it was just PewPew having a fair 1v1 war that led to them generating war acres, of course you took that away from them.

And who exactly were they going to double hostile you with? Up to this age I have only been affiliated with non-abs kd's, just in the past they've normally not taken part or condoned things this shady, atleast without their being a gb or mass deletions.

edit: I think the fact that you think the only issue is that you "beat" others to the acres says it all.

This is off topic, so in respect of the thread I will stay short.

I never suggested that the only issue was that we beat others to acres. I suggested that is the main reason for your tears: had the acres been helpful to your cause, you would've been singing a different tune. As for which kingdom, any one willing to give us such relations I would have to assume given that they explicitly told us we could not expect "fair treatment" from them. What do you expect us to do in that situation? Sit there and wait until a kingdom infamous for deal breaking and foul play decide to screw us over even worse? No. We did what any sensible kingdom would do in that situation: in lack of alliance back-up, we took matters in to our own hands. Most likely, it will cost us the age, but with such threats hanging over your head, there is no shot at crowning anyway.

But, don't worry. Should there be the slightest threat of SWEA crowning, I am sure that Absalom will write up a new precedent that justifies their gang banging: after all, Mansoor was a naughty boy a near-decade ago. With ASF back, I am sure you can spin that to your needs.

P.S. Based on Cody's own logs, we could've gotten at least 10k acres free. Instead, we got just short of 15k at the cost of increasing the risk of EoA GB (whether Debauchery or the rest) and not being able to either war or pump until matters with Debauchery are resolved. Are you really going to sit there and pretend that we got a great deal out of this? Get real. Just disband already or stop crying.

[Elldallan]

flogger: yes, I didn't think that was necessary but then proteus's first few rage years were litterred with those ;p

Your words, not mine. Nothing in there about the reset occurring when war is declared, merely that it means you can't give us notice before we're about to fight AMA to get around no notice into hostile.

I'm pretty sure you're aware that AMA and us are about to square off. In fact, you explicitly say fight rather than war. When I was talking to you the other day, it seemed that fight included oow and war.

You're just missing out on the Proteus context(since you havn't been around for a while) which would make it a lot clearer. What happened was that Proteus would send notice an hour or so before 2 kingdoms would go to war meaning Rage could proceed to vulture the noticed kd the same hour they exited postwar, with this context in mind it's clear what flogger meant. I don't think you're gonna be able to dodge BB by starting up round 2 with AMA, it's only going to get you 2v1'ed which honestly is something Havoc deserves after their assholeish play last age, so I for one do hope that AMA and BB 2v1 you, so please be my guest and go after AMA, it's going to work out really well for you I'm sure.

Anyone with a brain understands that we left acres on the table vs AMA that we want to collect. It doesn't matter even if we didn't have any CFs expiring -- we would have still gone right after them again. If AMA wants to offer us some land for a CF deal and then we go fight flogger, we will be willing to negotiate. But I'm not leaving that land on the table no matter how many people notice me to save AMA.

Sure but I doubt BB or AMA is going to go along with your plans, so please go after them, I'm sure it'll work out just splendidly for you :) I see no reason for AMA to offer you acres just because you want to dodge BB, you know they're gonna notice you the second you drop out of postwar, so initiating with AMA would be clear dodge, it's not gonna work out well for you if you do that.

This entire story is blown up way too much because Elit wants to double us. I say whatever. If that's how you want to win, fine.

Mmm yes because honestly you deserve to be ****played, Goodz did a lot of **** last age because he knew he couldn't win 1v1 against AMA, if you don't want that baggage you shouldn't have joined Havoc.

Round 1 was a very close fight and was an exciting war for many people looking in. My proposal to flogger is to back off and let AMA and Havoc have round 2. It's not like sitting back out of the fray, doubling another cow and pumping gold and science is a bad thing as you mentioned above.

Flogger wants to vulture you which would be a good strategic decision from his position. So I doubt thats gonna happen, doesn't look like AMA wants a second war so I guess you're out of luck. According to Abs logic it would be a clear attempt to dodge if you go after AMA a second time after BB sends notice

[Topsy]

This is off topic, so in respect of the thread I will stay short.

I never suggested that the only issue was that we beat others to acres. I suggested that is the main reason for your tears: had the acres been helpful to your cause, you would've been singing a different tune. As for which kingdom, any one willing to give us such relations I would have to assume given that they explicitly told us we could not expect "fair treatment" from them. What do you expect us to do in that situation? Sit there and wait until a kingdom infamous for deal breaking and foul play decide to screw us over even worse? No. We did what any sensible kingdom would do in that situation: in lack of alliance back-up, we took matters in to our own hands. Most likely, it will cost us the age, but with such threats hanging over your head, there is no shot at crowning anyway.

But, don't worry. Should there be the slightest threat of SWEA crowning, I am sure that Absalom will write up a new precedent that justifies their gang banging: after all, Mansoor was a naughty boy a near-decade ago. With ASF back, I am sure you can spin that to your needs.

Again, noone would be upset with a kd having generated acres from #:## due to a fair 1v1 war. This kd should be been PewPew. I would be just as mad about any other kd TM'ing into war under any condition.

As of now, the 2 reasons you've given for doubling a kd with an ally for acres through their war stance is 1)I wouldn't care if it hand't been you guys doing this for gains, and 2) Some mysterious kd 1/4 your size maybe interfering in some future engagement, after PewPew warred.

1 is simply not true, as it's the precedent of TM'ing into another kd's war for acres is the issue.
2 is just ridiculous, especially considering you are eoa NaP'd with 2 other kd's in the top 5 and at the very least on very good terms with another one.

[idiocy]

I have no doubt that if SWEA is unbeatable due to large size advantage they will get GB for the move. Its all very early why do people cry!

hehe you guys figure out the logistics, I munch popcorn and watch :)

[AquaSeaFoam]

But, don't worry. Should there be the slightest threat of SWEA crowning, I am sure that Absalom will write up a new precedent that justifies their gang banging: after all, Mansoor was a naughty boy a near-decade ago. With ASF back, I am sure you can spin that to your needs.

I'm not sure what your obsession is here with Absalom, but from what it looks like, it's your allies that are most upset since they are the ones you took the land from and positioned yourself ahead of. Last age, when Rage was about to fight SWEA, SWEA instead threatened to "farm out" to HOH the hour the Rage CF was up. HOH, who was trying to cf you since they had other plans, also didn't want Rage to get your acres first so they planned their wave as you requested. Rage could have rushed to beat them to waving you but instead tried to work out a cf deal with you. Even when Mansoor canceled the CF deal at the last second, Rage didn't touch SWEA despite us having to "get all ready" for our planned fight. When the situation was reversed, it looks like SWEA full waves into the hostile/war. As far as I'm aware, no one from Absalom has treated SWEA unfairly in any way and has been more "honorable" in their dealings with SWEA than SWEA has with other kingdoms as shown here.

So why do you keep calling out Absalom to GB you? BTW, I am not back. I still don't have a province or time to play one (only a bit of time to read the forum today.)

[Korp]

As of now, the 2 reasons you've given for gb'ing a kd with an ally for acres through their war stance is 1)I wouldn't care if it hand't been you guys doing this for gains, and 2) Some mysterious kd 1/4 your size maybe interfering in some future engagement, after PewPew warred.

Please refrain from using the term GB, if you call this a gb then you never experinced one.

[Topsy]

Edited for Korp

[JustinSane]

Again, noone would be upset with a kd having generated acres from #:## due to a fair 1v1 war. This kd should be been PewPew. I would be just as mad about any other kd TM'ing into war under any condition.

As of now, the 2 reasons you've given for doubling a kd with an ally for acres through their war stance is 1)I wouldn't care if it hand't been you guys doing this for gains, and 2) Some mysterious kd 1/4 your size maybe interfering in some future engagement, after PewPew warred.

1 is simply not true, as it's the precedent of TM'ing into another kd's war for acres is the issue.
2 is just ridiculous, especially considering you are eoa NaP'd with 2 other kd's in the top 5 and at the very least on very good terms with another one.

I suggest that you read better and leave the spinning to someone who is actually up for the challenge. Currently, you do more harm than good. Both to yourself, your kingdom and your alliance. For future discussions on the matter, I suggest you move them to a thread where they actually might belong.

Thank you,

Justin.

I'm not sure what your obsession is here with Absalom, but from what it looks like, it's your allies that are most upset since they are the ones you took the land from and positioned yourself ahead of. Last age, when Rage was about to fight SWEA, SWEA instead threatened to "farm out" to HOH the hour the Rage CF was up. HOH, who was trying to cf you since they had other plans, also didn't want Rage to get your acres first so they planned their wave as you requested. Rage could have rushed to beat them to waving you but instead tried to work out a cf deal with you. Even when Mansoor canceled the CF deal at the last second, Rage didn't touch SWEA despite us having to "get all ready" for our planned fight. When the situation was reversed, it looks like SWEA full waves into the hostile/war. As far as I'm aware, no one from Absalom has treated SWEA unfairly in any way and has been more "honorable" in their dealings with SWEA than SWEA has with other kingdoms as shown here.

So why do you keep calling out Absalom to GB you? BTW, I am not back. I still don't have a province or time to play one (only a bit of time to read the forum today.)

First, I have no interest to comment on SWEA's actions last age as I was not around. That said, I do not condone the contemporary practice of "farming out" to avoid conflict: its undoubtedly poor form. As for my comment about your return, it was more a compliment than anything else: you are the epitome of the Absalom spin machine, for that you have my fullest respect. But see, judging from the thread, the justifying spin has already started. Granted, we had part in creating the ultimate opportunity, but we both know stranger things have happened in the past.

Like I said to Topsy though, out of respect for the forum rules, I suggest the discussion is moved where it belongs. Before making further posts, I also suggest that both of you read up on the series of events that ultimately led to this outcome.

Thank you,

Justin.

[goodz]

in numerous past conflicts acres gained in such a way are razed off. SWEA will perhaps raze them off, I kinda doubt it.

But perhaps they just keep them.

I think youll see them get gangbanged later in age if they choose that route but who knows :)