But you just said you refused _all_ deals. :(Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam
But you just said you refused _all_ deals. :(
Is not an EoWCF period still part of an active conflict? The game mechanics treat it as such.......
yet another basis on which to object to the conspiracy.
In this case I presume ASF wants people to honor a presumably implicit deal... as opposed to every other instance where they deny the validity of any implied deal.....
"having fun warring when you have whoring and number 1 as a goal is totally pointless..." - Korp
"while I heart shiester when we both play serious and are in the same kingdom, I hate shiester on the forums and pretty much disagree with everything he says. Even he knows this." - Flogger asking me out on a date
The devs have made a decision to kill competitive utopia and have thereby killed my interest with it.
You can try and twist words into something else, but this is not what happened with Bour. Bour had 4 people in Bb read and ignore his messages that he made clear were urgent. He then hit and again offered them more new deals. BB did start talking to him after he got their attention by razing. At this time they directly rejected his offers of giving all land back plus extra for a cf. They then also directly rejected his offer of all land plus extra plus gc plus fake hostile for a cf.
The hardest part of debating in the Utopian community:
Even if you're absolutely correct in the matter, the moment you say "I'm done debating" the other side immediately says "Then we win!" ;)
That's why nobody will ever withdraw from the debate... on and on and on... until someone just lets the other side claim victory by withdrawing from the discussion.
Does it now? So, that enforced CF between the kd is what? :))
No, the active conflict is clearly over when a kd wd's from war. It says right in the paper that the conflict has ended when that happens. Post war is a recovery period to minimize damage from getting vultured. Before there was post war, kingdoms would often get waved the hour they left a live war by "vultures". For example, this was Brute force's normal tactic when they were on the battlefields (main) server. They would wait for Rage to exit a war with no post war protection and then immediately wave them and force a cf. You can bet that Rage didn't like those tactics of vulturing to force a cf, but it was considered a cowardly but valid way to play and there was never any issue made of it despite them doing it 3 separate times to Rage alone that I remember (and Rage never having done it to them.)
A four hour delay is a basis for determining ingored. Is it not reasonable to not hit reply until after being able to consult with leadership? Lets say hypothetically that Emeriti does not want every core member engaging in diplomacy. They receive a diplomatic message ingame. They try to get in touch with Leshrak who is notoriously AFK. It takes them four hours or more to get in touch with Leshrak and in the intervening time they do not respond to the sender.....
So the sender is justified in hitting into Emeriti's EoWCF.
Interesting. So the argument boils down to, centralized control of diplomacy is worthy of ignoring the generally accepted rules of conduct.... Ergo, it is appropriate now for Emeriti and crew to de facto enforce a form of governance on other kingdoms.
**edit**
or I suppose to enforce a response that is diplomatic in nature contrary to the directives of the leadership of the other kingdom.....?
Last edited by Sheister; 21-06-2015 at 14:48.
"having fun warring when you have whoring and number 1 as a goal is totally pointless..." - Korp
"while I heart shiester when we both play serious and are in the same kingdom, I hate shiester on the forums and pretty much disagree with everything he says. Even he knows this." - Flogger asking me out on a date
The devs have made a decision to kill competitive utopia and have thereby killed my interest with it.
And what is that you are doing? You claim that they refused any deals and ignored Bour just cause they didnt respond to a message right away giving them a 4 hour window. You trying to so hard to justify Bours actions which was encouraged by your kingdom, (Which at first was denied by your kingdom) I am surprised that you failed to see the backlash of that as well, its like you're a newbie. :(
Everyone including Emeriti and bour have already agreed that Bour should have given more time. Dorje said this himself in the leadership channel where the selective logs were from. You can try and nitpick on such things like if 4h is too short but 24h is ok, but everyone has already agreed that 4h was not enough time despite the urgency of his messages. Even without sending any initial messages at all, hitting straight away and then offering all land back plus extra free land for a cf still would have left Bb in a good position if they would have just accepted it. Bour didn't want Bb to just stall until they could train up because every hour they stalled on responding to him they got more prepared to train up and once they were trained up they could have farmed him with nothing he could do about it besides intra raze down.
Yet you keep coming with the argument "Ignored" "refused deals"Everyone including Emeriti and bour have already agreed that Bour should have given more time. You can try and nitpick on such things like if 4h is too short but 24h is ok, but everyone has already agreed that 4h was not enough time despite the urgency of his messages
Do you have some magic ability in Utopia where you can train up superfast? In the span of fours hours?Bour didn't want Bb to just stall until they could train up because every hour they stalled on responding to him they got more prepared to train up and once they were trained up they could have farmed him with nothing he could do about it besides intra raze down.
Yet to the rest of the server it displays that the kingdom is at war with X:X. So the kingdom is treated with respect to the rest of the server as still being in conflict. Does your subjective view of this now hold more weight that the express game mechanics?
OH! So you are saying that what Bour did is a permissable vulture according to Age 28 codes of conduct..... So we are going back to age 28 now? I eagerly await the thousands of players that are going to join. Or have we evolved beyond this point through several ages where: 1)the game is nothing like that and it is generally accepted that you don't hit into EoWCF's; 2) Emeriti's conduct in encouraging the practice is still wrong; 3) Bour did not have any justification; 4) and this four hour window and messaging to non-diplomacy engaged core members is a smokescreen of burning feces?Post war is a recovery period to minimize damage from getting vultured. Before there was post war, kingdoms would often get waved the hour they left a live war by "vultures". For example, this was Brute force's normal tactic when they were on the battlefields (main) server. They would wait for Rage to exit a war with no post war protection and then immediately wave them and force a cf. You can bet that Rage didn't like those tactics of vulturing to force a cf, but it was considered a cowardly but valid way to play and there was never any issue made of it despite them doing it 3 separate times to Rage alone that I remember (and Rage never having done it to them.)
"having fun warring when you have whoring and number 1 as a goal is totally pointless..." - Korp
"while I heart shiester when we both play serious and are in the same kingdom, I hate shiester on the forums and pretty much disagree with everything he says. Even he knows this." - Flogger asking me out on a date
The devs have made a decision to kill competitive utopia and have thereby killed my interest with it.
No, they initially ignored his cf requests by having 4 people read his messages and none reply even to say "we'll talk about it and get back to you."
After that, bour razed. Once he razed they no longer ignored him. Then they told him that they refused to give him a cf for his offer of all land back plus extra. they also told him they refused to cf him for his offer of all land plus extra plus gc plus a fake hostile. This has been posted a double digit number of times, I had thought you'd have understood it by now.
It was a favorable tactic by Absalom as well, I can count several times when my kd exiting wars would be vultured by another Absalom kingdom. "Coindence" sure..
It's obvious common sense that once a kingdom has withdrawn from war and the war has ended that no actions after that can affect who won the war. I'm not even debating if vulturing a kingdom into post war is a valid tactic, I'm just saying it's not hitting into an active war nor an active fight. It's vulturing. Hitting into an active fight is worse in my opinion because you can affect the outcome of an active fight by your hits. You can't affect the outcome of a fight that has already finished though and hitting a kingdom who is weak after a fight has always been called vulturing in utopia.
Thats poor logic and really grasping for straws, not responding straight away isnt ignoring.
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