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Problem is about mechanics. Current relation system is broken and need change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Cant agree. Why you need to kill other ppl age just because they don't want to war you. Bash other kd just because you can is lame and dirty play. I prefer to gave them CF and move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Your main argument is lack of fighting/competition well that's abs, they are basically all that's left. Go tell Sanc to war rage and you can have your grand battles during the age. But 100k or 7k players there were always kds that played the games for the social aspect or once "war" that concept got introduced, that hasn't changed. All thats changed is its not the top 75-80 kds now its the top 5 kds that compete and kds can easily see when they no longer stand a chance to "win" the age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
4 things wrong here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
1. NAP+no war is a strategy its a good strategy y not mimic kds that win and use their strategy.
2. From my experience waring kds dont NAP, they only CFs to reset hostiles, and avoid kds they dont want to hurt with "randoms". Thats like 3-4 kds an age and those CF's get broken for war all the time.
3. you insult waring kds when u imply the quality of wars <<top wars
4.You need higher activity in the top because you dont get to chose when that activity happens, u can get waved and HAVE to fight anytime during the age. Most people would rather set utopia around their life not the otherway around, remember fog?
hey u wanna war, eh, i dont think we could fight u right now and win. Been told that over irc before hit them twice to make sure that half no was a full no. Got an earful in irc so we sent a cf to reset relations, and broke cf the next day. It comes down toQuote:
Originally Posted by Palem
why should i purposely hurt someone i know I'm better than or waste sometimes time when they know they cant win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Because an attitude like
this is completely counter to having fun in utopia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Quote:
Originally Posted by brado
Does that mean every individual bigger then the smallest prov in sanctuary right now is capable and those that aren't as big aren't capable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Realest
I think we should do it in reverse and all the big kd's should stop growing to make it more competitive!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
Considering that I took a random kd of 25 rainbow races to the nr1 spot with 48h to go, speaks to my ability more than anything other kds could muster. Besides, if we wanted to farm/hack an EoA war like Balance, we would have won the crown. But as it is, the only crown that matters is the acre/nw one, so there's no point of going against my principles to farm for a child's crown.
You even said it yourself - it was a midage decision after we filled the kd to 25 via PUBLIC RANDOM + INVITES and we came close enough. Imagine if we cared from the start and actually picked proper set up with my own players - we'd win by a huge margin. Sure, we didn't actually win, and you can argue this is purely speculation. Nonetheless, it doesnt take a genius to tell that my domination is highly more probable than random warring ghetto choosing to ascend up the acres chart and actually succeeding. Once again, this is ability and only a handful of individuals in this game is capable. As it stands, I believe only dorje and flogger are capable, but their talents are better utlized in the chart that matters - acres. You can still cling to the belief that "having fun" and "getting wars" is more worthwhile. Like Palem said, some people like to play rebound-ball in a basketball game. Good for you but you're missing the point.
After one of the Bulls' practices in 1997, Scott Burrell, Jordan's teammate, challenged Jordan to a game of one on one. They played and Burrell had a good chance to beat Jordan with the score tied at six a piece (going up to seven). Burrell had the ball, but Ron Harper who was watching the game on the sidelines called Burrell for traveling. Jordan got the ball back and without hesitation drove past Burrell and dunked the ball making it a 7-6 victory. Michael got the last shot to win, but Burrell was right up in MJ's face trash talking. MJ didn't say a word and just walked off the court. A few days later Burrell convinced MJ to play again, but Jordan won easily this time. Again, Jordan just walked off the court without saying a word. But Burrell couldn't keep his mouth shut. Burrell said to MJ, "C'mon, let's go back out there and finish this!" Jordan replied, "You just want to play so you can go tell your kids when they grow up that you beat Michael Jordan once. What am I gonna tell my kids? I beat Scott Burrell? Big deal. They'll slap the hell out of me."Quote:
Originally Posted by Anri
id be mad if i would have played 50 ages and not ever won anything.
If people are happy its don't matter how they play.
Land and NW chart is boring boring boring and now when Proteus become inactive and no post constant its hell boring!
Dont make me find all the times you posted this story. Its getting very old. The sadest part about this is that you are Burrel. You got your ass whopped not once, not twice, but three times against me. I dont know how hard you really tried, it does not change what happend. If you are retired you should stay retired instead of trying with your fail comebacks and same old **** in here in the forum. Stop acting as if you are of any importance or anyone cares about you. Most people dont even know who you are or what you have done at all. In my eyes you are still as dead as i left you. R.I.P NubQuote:
Originally Posted by Realest
Yeah it tends to keep NW too high and make it super easy to finish you off. but then there is always at least one that likes to die....Quote:
Originally Posted by prot
Pretty sure Realest wasn't running the trollfags when they stalled you. I could certainly be wrong though.
You sound like a vegan lion lol. On a more serious noteQuote:
Originally Posted by Persain
It's a strategy that works under certain circumstances. Change the landscape at the top and that strategy will need changing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
I'm willing to say that for kds under the top 50, they have no plans on breaking any of the CF's they've currently got, regardless of how they got them. Odds are they got the cf by waving/being waved and the other side's interest was different than their own. It's unlikely that either side's feelings changed.Quote:
2. From my experience waring kds dont NAP, they only CFs to reset hostiles, and avoid kds they dont want to hurt with "randoms". Thats like 3-4 kds an age and those CF's get broken for war all the time.
I didn't say that one was better than the other. I said it was a wash. Throughout the age a higher quality warring kd would prolly end up with a win record over say:Quote:
3. you insult waring kds when u imply the quality of wars <<top wars
Bad ghetto #1
Bad ghetto #2
Decent warring kd
Good warring kd
Good warring kd
Very good warring kd
Where as a good top war record might consist of:
Rage
Sanctuary
Beastblood
To claim that one is better than the other isn't worth the time. Yea, the warring kd warred more people, but a couple were throw-aways. Some others were kds who by all admittance aren't bad kds, but certainly not top tier.
Are you honestly going to sit there and argue that beating Cataclysm (#100 on the warring charts) is just as worthy as beating Rage? If you are I'm honestly done arguing with you.
*No disrespect intended for anyone who plays in Cataclysm. You have room to improve and I'm sure you're happy to agree :)
I'm pretty sure getting waved at any possible time is something that happens everywhere in the charts, not just the top. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you're suggesting that the second a "top" kd gets waved that they need to be on responding, that's just not true. They'll get their retals in and such but they're still going to spend a few days preparing for the war and then they're going to war when they're good and ready. How is that different than any other kd?Quote:
4.You need higher activity in the top because you dont get to chose when that activity happens, u can get waved and HAVE to fight anytime during the age. Most people would rather set utopia around their life not the otherway around, remember fog?
I don't often find myself agreeing with Anri but in this case I do. Is anyone else sick of hearing Realest come on these boards claiming to be Michael Jordan? Seriously it is getting old. You talk a lot of **** for someone that wont back it up, the last I heard your kingdom mass deleted because it was getting its arse handed to it. Come back, Build a kingdom in 24hrs or whatever **** you have claimed to do and see if you can crown. If not, **** off and stop acting like a total moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anri
You claim to be a damn messiah, come show us then champ. Anri has called you out, if you do not accept his challenge, go back to claiming to be the best. Either way, you have been challenged and I will damn sure bet on the Apes in this one.
EDIT: "Insert reason why Realest won't come back because no-one is as good as him." You call trollfags a success, everyone else called it a farm.
Uh oh. You mad son. Hug?
Yes please
really why ? its only a free online text based strategy gameQuote:
Originally Posted by gergnub
so much hate :o
have a huggle!
You don't seem to realize it but you keep bashing war kingdoms who put little effort into growing so they don't have to fight the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
You're doing the exact opposite which is just as bad if not even worse. The war kingdoms at least get their wars. You just pick a setup that can explore so you can play with the big boys in the top10. Yet again you refuse to war anyone.
And as Elit says, whats the whole point in waving someone who told you in advance, they had no intentions to war you? Unless you want the acres you'd rather focus your energy on a target that might war. And that is also the reason why no-one bothers TFC; you wouldn't war anyone anyway.
People like THIS are the reason why Absalom are still in power and other top kds usually only last a few ages. People with big egos can't cooperate and if you give it time, their heads will inflate too much for them to function in this game due to the physical difficulties of walking through doors, holding your head up, and just general headache. Sadly, utopia is filled with people like this. The positive side of it is that alien hunters get a lot of kicks from watching these big-headed people, believing them to be aliens. In fact, all the ufo and alien stuff we hear about on History Channel originates from Realest's predecessor; Chai. He too had a huge head (though his exploded in the end) and was the first "alien" ever to be observed by UFO hunters. True story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Realest
So, it is wrong to blame Absalom. Blame people like Realest instead.
its just how the cookie crumbles in some cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurlin
No, Realest was there at all events. But turned inactive in both wars i beleive. For second war i think he activated sitting. He is a weak player overall that lives on past achievements. He could not make a better KD then Troll******s without having others to lead it for him. He is better of staying retired and if by any chance he would come back he should at least make sure to back his talk up so i dont come and smash him to the ground as soon as he tries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
There are more ad hominem and straw man arguments in this thread than i can count....
Bottom line is the top of the charts is not competative, it should change for the good of the game, be it by player choice or mechanic changing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy
Oh man, cool ****. Didn't know I could **** in here. I wasted a lot of time reading this thread just now and there is a whole lotta crap (another word for ****) in here. The only good **** in this thread is this fine nugget (eh, maybe yet another word for **** depending on how it is used). Thanks Bishop! I learned some new **** today about the forums. Your post was the only worthwhile one to read of this whole pathetic ****ty thread. Gotta love complainers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
I live to serve
We won last age exactly as Anri requested after he warred the ghetto we were idling in. We can't put on these spectacle kingdoms every single age as it really takes a lot out of us mentally and emotionally. Some of the players at our level even see sports therapists to help manage the stress.Quote:
Originally Posted by DM_Benjamin
I dont disagree and if every kd got reset to fight at 40k acres after each war with either any acre distributions they want or everyone at 1k acres those 3 kds would probably be the top 3 "war" kds in the game. But i personally think a few kds i've played against would/could beat them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
And what it boils down to is
im not gonna argue that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
What i'd argue is alot of people would rather meet new kds, spam the war forums, and try lure a kd like Cataclysm onto IRC to have funny times during wars 1-2-3 while they wait for war kds to tag up. Ie have fun and relax instead of power play and land whore oop. A kd like Wehurt, Vic N Virture or a kd that arrises with 4/4 war wins like "wSk Xmas Party" to is still valid competition. While not maybe as good as sanc a war can be equally challenging if u give those kds enough of an advantage. I remember waring The Legendary Gods, we weren't taged when they waved us and they had a 10 % size advantage. However as they were mostly undeads on 60% draft rate and lowish def we grew something like 40-50% in min time and were able to chain 5 of them from 2000-300 in the opening war wave. was that an "worthy win?" eh, but would i war i war them again, sure, if they thought they could beat us why not let them try again. The last time we asked for war hoping they would try we got turned down because their activity was low Why is making them pay for that a good thing, or letting them war a kd as active as claimed to be a bad thing.
We wouldn't war anyone? We're happy to war people. Just be prepared for a long hostile. We aren't going to war you until you're weakened to a point that we think we can win. If you wave us we aren't just going to blindly declare and then get stomped by people. That's not playing passively, that's playing stupid and totally ignoring your kds strengths and weaknesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by prot
When you say "Warring kds" you seem to be using that exclusively for the good quality kds. When I say warring kds, I'm using it for every kd that calls themselves a warring kd, which prolly includes 350+ kds. MOST of these kds are not that good. MOST actively avoid good/better kds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
It's not like I'm suggesting that the ghetto kitties don't war anyone tough. Can they improve? Yes. I've also said the growth kds can improve too. Do they have as much room for improvement as say Cataclysm? No.
I have no interest in making war kds NOT be war kds anymore. You want to war great. But stop thinking that you need to avoid growth to do it.
Sorry your right its kinda a generic term just like "top" usually refers to land whoring kds and TFC would fall in that rough category. I just get sick of say SOME or few, or the better war kds every time i type. Bu the thing is u are trying to actively change them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
would you say a war at 15 million is better than a war at 6 million nw. Because right now 2 equally skilled kds can sit at either and "quickly" shift between those two nw's trying to find war. If bigger=better add a zero to everyone land and boom super fun times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
If what your saying is its better to war against other good kds, kds that are equally as skilled then your bad at suggestions, thats already done.
If what u want is the NW/land chart to be a representation of kd skill then the mechanics need to be changed to do that not player attitudes.
If what u want is simply more top "competition" then go punish abs and change game mechanics to make it easier to nw whore since thats what those kds do best. The kds that lack the drive to compete up top do so because they've seen what happens to kds that aren't clearly better than rage/sanc/pulse, they get beat down over and over again like simians. Heck simians has almost crowned, if all u want is for more kds to be like Simians and compete well even those that tease Anri thinks his kd is
at worst the 10th BEST kd in the game. Why put yourself through all the crap simians gets when u can simply fight him when hes smaller..cats v simians for example in ages past.Quote:
Originally Posted by octobrev
edit BTW
If you could use the same GBP provide by hostile in a "war" im plenty of kds would war you it'd make at 25 feary setup one of the strongest in the game too. But as you cant stop outside hits from interfering during hostile its suicide to try to fight TFC. With that said even if you could stop outside hits abusing game mechanics via GBP like u guys have been doing gets the game changed; see bounce waves not effecting the meter, reduced gains only in fort. Wars shouldn't simply be fought out during hostile its one of the last remaining bad in game designs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Realest might be good, trollfags might have been good, etc. But I think we can all agree that "I could come back at any moment and defeat everyone, but currently there is no worthy opponent, so utopia doesn't deserve to be graced by my presence" is lame. If you don't want to play, don't play. But that bs reasoning is just a cop-out.
People who are the best at anything don't need to keep reminding everyone about it.
NW/Land is already roughly a representation of skill, with some exceptions. The cream rises to the top. Look at the kitties. They USUALLY have a nice ending on the charts. They never really end the age "small". The same is true for other good warring kds. If you just mix in some actual whoring then you're even larger and make a bigger splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
That's a weird stance. Is TFC allowed to hit into Divinities hostiles now? Or is it strictly hostiles with TFC that aren't to be respected?Quote:
If you could use the same GBP provide by hostile in a "war" im plenty of kds would war you it'd make at 25 feary setup one of the strongest in the game too. But as you cant stop outside hits from interfering during hostile its suicide to try to fight TFC. With that said even if you could stop outside hits abusing game mechanics via GBP like u guys have been doing gets the game changed; see bounce waves not effecting the meter, reduced gains only in fort. Wars shouldn't simply be fought out during hostile its one of the last remaining bad in game designs.
If we as a community expect hostiles to be respected then I suggest the next time 10+ kds hit into a hostile someone does something about it.
Each war win is a happy crown in my happy hippie-mind. Mid-size tier = more wars. @ top tier you get less wars for more activity OOW. In terms of FUN its totally not worth it. And after all this is a game... Just let us have fun. If you wanna challenge people to have more fun by improving the way YOU think is improving then by all means do suggest it. But dont be suck a prick doing it. Thats just a turnoff
A better idea if you want more kingdoms around your size is to revise the exploration pool and Paradise spell. For example the Exploration pool caps at 1/5th or 1/10th of your kingdom size. The growth rate of acres in pool is altered to 2.5 instead of the current 5 times it's amount while the decay rate is set to 1% instead of the 0.5% mark. Then you set Paradise to cost 1.5x the amount of acres in exploration pool rounded down with partial numbers. To me this will encourage wars more resulting in more kingdoms fighting each other. You can't force someone to change their playing style but you can modify the exploration/paradise process.
I want you to have more fun. I'm still waiting for an opinion on how I injected my opinion into improving whoring improves your kd. You can get better. You know HOW you can get better and you blatantly disregard it because of some stupid, fake excuses that you've made up in your "hippie-mind".Quote:
Originally Posted by Retailer
If I wanted people to just be bigger the OP would have said "Hey everyone, empty your explore pools". The game's filled with crappy kds who can EASILY improve if they would just challenge themselves a bit and make a push. There's also kds who are very good at warring and just call it quits there and ignore the other half of the game because someone somewhere told them that's not fun. It's stupid and I'm tired of people throwing around empty excuses because they're too scared to fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsu
The mechanics don't need to change. The community needs to change.
At the top wars are more entertaining and occur far more organically. There's also more at stake, and they occur within the strategy of the entire round. The problem is its possible to lose wars without them ever happening, for example if you fall behind to the point that you are out of reach of anyone and there is noone large enough to war and leapfrog with.
Having a bad age when going for growth is similar in fun to having a bad age when going for wars, doesn't mean its the style that's bad. The game works really well when land is the resource people are focused on, its just inorder for people outside the top 3 to be having the most fun with it you'd need more people going for it. Absent that, it's really important to be really good at it.
Again, my two cents:Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I'm in a warring KD. There are quite a number of other warring KDs down here in the ghetto/semi-ghetto-size area.
Just take a look at the warwins chart: The FIRST one that's even vaguely recognizable to me is SPGC at #21, then Divinity at #50 and Pewpew at #55. Or maybe I'm just uninformed. Of the three, the impression I get here is that SPGC's not even considered "top" tier material alongside the likes of the Abs 3+1 gang.
Well, The Abs 3+1 isn't up on the warwins chart. Neither are Simians, BiO, or any of the rest you mentioned (unless they're not tagged or I missed some of them).
Now look at the warwins chart. Masks and Karaoke Machines are the only KDs in the top 20 that are above 15mil NW (10mil, even, because only BOB are right on 10mil). Many of those up there are in the 5-7mil NW range, like Eclairs, Spartans, Dirty Secrets and Modesty. Many more are on the 7-9mil range.
All of which means that:
FIRSTLY, if I'm in a warring KD, and I actually WANT to war against the best... to me, the best aren't like Abs sitting up there on the NW/Land charts. The best are the leaders on the Warwins chart sitting at 5-7 mil.
SECONDLY, these warring KDs I am looking at are perfectly well within my range. If they're not, fine, we'll do a little resizing cause they'll be only slightly out of range. Why would I go to all the trouble of growing up to Abs' size when I can find a satisfying war against the best on the WW charts? I might also be farmed all the way. If I am, it means I'm already not good enough to think about competing with them.
THIRDLY, if I get all I want down here (wars), why would I bother to focus on growth? It's a distraction I can do without. I'm perfectly happy. Call me lazy. Whatever. TO me, growth, or the lack of it, is a byproduct of winning wars, or finding a war. It's not the end, it's the means to an end, and not exactly something I want to spend so much time on.
Now. The issue you face, Palem, is that there's not enough competition at the "top". But here, "top" is a concept that can be placed where you want it to be. (NW? Land? War Wins? Number of people's ages you've screwed over?) 18 of the top 20 WW KD's are down here in size. So basically, what I think you want (I may be wrong, please correct me if I am) is for the ENTIRE SERVER to change their mindsets to match the top 10 in land, for a crown that not too many people find very relevant anyway. Which, by the way, sounds pretty selfish and elitist.
No, thank you very much.
I thought war win charts is the chart where you get the most war wins? So all you have to do is war more and win more without losing? I wonder if I am in a 15 prov kingdom and only war kingdoms with 15 provs or less whether I can get in the top 5 ww charts.. hrm..
Kern:
Last time I checked the majority of kingdoms that are great WW kingdoms get beat down when they war the land whore kingdoms. This being when they are the same size. Just cause you can stay small and war people at small size doesn't mean you have what it take when the sizes change and that opening attack (THE VERY FIRST HIT) from a chain just took 1200 acres which is roughly 15% of your acres.
All I mean by that is that the mechanics/thinking/stakes change when you have more to lose and alot of kingdoms can't keep their players in the kingdom after crap like that. Try going from 8k acres to 800 acres in about 15 minutes (THX BIO) sometime. Then you can come talk about great war win kingdoms.
And i keep replying the same thing. I am up here and it is not fun. Sure perhaps im learning 1 or 2 new things but i am NOT having more fun. SINCE i enjoy WARS more than anything and getting up here is very difficult. Game mechanics atm work so that you cant really BULLY someone into war. Meaning if a kd dont want war they enter fortified and we gotta move on. If not we will most likely be waved by another kd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
And I improve more by facing other setups @ smaller sizes. More wars against more formidable opponents and I learn more.
If infact you just want to give people a "push in the right direction" perhaps you should create a new thread and rant in a more encouraging way? Cause the "youre stupid if you dont want to improve, and you improve by challanging yourself, that means grow and fight abs"-argument just doesnt work.
Well i do know that leading @ higher levels takes alot of time and can be stressful even.Quote:
Originally Posted by octobrev
But Really?
If so it just emphasizes my point that it aint all fun and stuff up at the top.
@Palem i guess its like any other game out there. Some people play the games casually, spending not that much time on it, just logging in and killing/grinding or whatever.
Whilst others strive for perfection and want to maximize their performance and be "pro".
What you are trying to do is push people more in a hardcore direction. Cause thats what going big takes mainly. TIME. Just like anything else you want to excel in the required time spent increases. And for some people utopia is something we do to kill some time online.
correct and its always been that way. The first step is to get everyone into 24-25 player kds and stop capping kds at 20. Activity wins wars and when 25 player kds cant punish 20 player kds for simply being smaller in the mid tier theirs no reason for alot of those things to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Games been going 10+ years in the kds that u think are good enough to challenge the "top" how many do u think have players who have played in those kds and not enjoyed it. Its not even about failing its about effort and pacing. Not everyone wants enjoys politics nor do they enjoy the pace of the game up there, super active 2 weeks oop, set waves for 2 weeks, stall for 6 weeks, war for 2 weeks. maybe some random wars thrown in but they often arent at "good" times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
agreed, yet try using tact if your gonna make that suggestion. Now that i cave to that point try living on this planet and go make a suggestion to fix the mechanics to force it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
edit
Just TFC, not everyone respects hostiles and normally thats fine but since any hostile with tfc is gonna take a kd to <120 nw/acre and last 2 weeks u cant really expect that every semi active player in the game is gonna avoid your kd simply because u tag "hostile." How about if u start relating hits, you gonna not lose significantly more than u gain, what about if 15 kds hit you. you gonna make all of them "pay" for dirty play. A kd like yours that uses GBP to draw out hostile as long as it'll take to win ends up unwittingly useing outside help. Not saying your wrong to do it, just saying thats y no one is gonna war u with your current strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
This thread like 1000000000000 threads same type as this.
<tl;dr>
Top5: learn to play, come compete top, its challenging and much more rewarding
Warring KDs: lol no, its not
Top5: Well do as you wish, but dont whine while we want to grow
Warring KDs: lol no, warring takes skill more and we want to play more casually, pls dont bottom feed on us.
</tl;dr>
Mercy middle-tier?