Proposal to end he Awar

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Originally Posted by flogger

Your signature indicates you fought in 5 awars and won them, did you raze down after those wins?

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Also here the question is not abt razing or anything in previous awars.

You started this GB cos you wanted to set a precedent that No kd ever hits in eowcf!! So you want to punish us! We accept all the punishment but it should be the same to the other kds too!

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Originally Posted by Felonious

So you're a proponent of Draconian law and guilt or innocence based on public opinion, good to know...

(most of the rhetoric that you've clearly been swayed by is against a phantom btw)

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What else do you want in a game like Utopia? Forensic evidence? There are logs of the act actually if you want to nitpick that much.
I'm going to pull out of this discussion now, mostly because I don't care about the issue anymore. I have made up my mind on the matter and illogical arguments will not change it, neither will my posts change yours.

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Originally Posted by Judge

Exactly my point! We had the guts to win against our opponents and BB actually didnt! The damage in both the instances cannot be counted but atleast we didnt have to GB them to show our supremacy!

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Beating somebody 1v1 after that somebody ****played you previous to upcoming conflict is not a punishment, its is incentive to repeat the transgression next time.

There has to be some form of punishment that goes beyond what would normally be experienced (in this case that would be 1v1 conflict).
Even if you were to completely anihilate theoretical transgressor in theoretical 1v1 conflict that is not worse than what would happen to him if he didnt secure unfair advantage with said ****play.
Quite the contrary its reasonable to assume conflict would pan out even worse for him is unfair advantage wasnt obtained.

Outcome of the 1v1 counflict would be completelly irrelevant, it would still serve as incentive to repeat ****play next time.

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Originally Posted by citadela01

Beating somebody 1v1 after that somebody ****played you previous to upcoming conflict is not a punishment, its is incentive to repeat the transgression next time.

There has to be some form of punishment that goes beyond what would normally be experienced (in this case that would be 1v1 conflict).
Even if you were to completely anihilate theoretical transgressor in theoretical 1v1 conflict that is not worse than what would happen to him if he didnt secure unfair advantage with said ****play.
Quite the contrary its reasonable to assume conflict would pan out even worse for him is unfair advantage wasnt obtained.

Outcome of the 1v1 counflict would be completelly irrelevant, it would still serve as incentive to repeat ****play next time.

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We thought they will learn not to cheat :( But they didnt!! They again were caught doing it this age!!

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

What else do you want in a game like Utopia? Forensic evidence? There are logs of the act actually if you want to nitpick that much.
I'm going to pull out of this discussion now, mostly because I don't care about the issue anymore. I have made up my mind on the matter and illogical arguments will not change it, neither will my posts change yours.

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Hey bud, you're the one who wanted to play lawyer. But I dont blame you for wanting to bow out. It was a terribad argument ;)

(btw, there's mountains of evidence that BB's main ally is dirty to the core. Seems they dont mind turning a blind eye to all that though. Odd...)

Who is judge?

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Originally Posted by citadela01

Outcome of the 1v1 counflict would be completelly irrelevant, it would still serve as incentive to repeat ****play next time.

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So as u are saying, if the 10 kingdoms who are currently hitting into war n eowcf right now will all not be actioned, it will serve as an incentive to repeat the ****play next time?

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Originally Posted by tetley

Who is judge?

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Just someone who has asked flogger a question and he doesnt wanna answer it :(

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Originally Posted by Judge

So as u are saying, if the 10 kingdoms who are currently hitting into war n eowcf right now will all not be actioned, it will serve as an incentive to repeat the ****play next time?

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You can not ask of us to adhere to codex of rules whose trangression is the cause of action against you.
Well you can but nobody will give a **** about it.
Id say its pretty obvious that moment allout fight broke out any and all rules of fair play and utopian customs went down the drain.

Once the dust settles down they will be reinstated and things will go back to normal.

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Originally Posted by citadela01

Once the dust settles down they will be reinstated and things will go back to normal.

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hahaha... if you think normal will ever be anything better than this again, you're fooling yourself ;) This grudge will be back next age and the age after that and the age after that... eventually causing the same ****storm each age.

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Originally Posted by citadela01

You can not ask of us to adhere to codex of rules whose trangression is the cause of action against you.
Well you can but nobody will give a **** about it.
Id say its pretty obvious that moment allout fight broke out any and all rules of fair play and utopian customs went down the drain.

Once the dust settles down they will be reinstated and things will go back to normal.

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If one person does a rape, its called rape! If 10 people do it, its still called rape!! Stop showing us your double standards!!

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Originally Posted by Judge

Just someone who has asked flogger a question and he doesnt wanna answer it :(

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Sorry, busy killing your allies cause your leaders are too stubborn to have just bitten the bullet a week ago. What was the question?

Judge your right but your analogy is wrong...

A rape is a rape no matter how many does it, however the 1 that steps in and deem the offense to be executional, is not charged with murder like everyone else, he has to right to execute the sentence without being trialed as a murdere..

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Originally Posted by Judge

If one person does a rape, its called rape! If 10 people do it, its still called rape!! Stop showing us your double standards!!

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Double standards ?
Rules and customs you are talking about are not laws, we are not commiting a crime against nature here.
Only rules we must adhere to are the ones enforced gy game support.
Customs you talk about have developed over time to ensure fair playing field and fair 1v1 fight for people playing this game.
Moment this all erupted those customs arent worth ****.

If your kingdom signs up to take part in the awar, rules and cf's usually are removed and reinstated after, its one of the "perks" of joining into something like that, but also 1 of the reasons i wish to stay out like a few others..

A deal should have been reached ages ago and at the very atleast negotiations should be coming to a close by now, but with 2 stubborn leaders that both says they are correct (they both are to some extend), unfortunately as everyone can see its divided the waters and im sure these things will continue into next age if not resolved..

If i was Emeriti i would pull out of the growth race and say "ok we take it on next age" then they just need to convince all the other parties of moving on. (Before Emeriti players/Allies say "why should we"), You are losing and i doubt very much BB's side will stop when you didnt agree to a deal in the first place, I must say its remarkable how quick Emeriti has managed to grow back, now if anyone can donate my KD about 60k acres, i will happily sit at the top and say whos right and whos wrong while knocking people down that attempts to grow over a certain size :p

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Originally Posted by Aranfein

If your kingdom signs up to take part in the awar, rules and cf's usually are removed and reinstated after, its one of the "perks" of joining into something like that, but also 1 of the reasons i wish to stay out like a few others..

A deal should have been reached ages ago and at the very atleast negotiations should be coming to a close by now, but with 2 stubborn leaders that both says they are correct (they both are to some extend), unfortunately as everyone can see its divided the waters and im sure these things will continue into next age if not resolved..

If i was Emeriti i would pull out of the growth race and say "ok we take it on next age" then they just need to convince all the other parties of moving on. (Before Emeriti players/Allies say "why should we"), You are losing and i doubt very much BB's side will stop when you didnt agree to a deal in the first place, I must say its remarkable how quick Emeriti has managed to grow back, now if anyone can donate my KD about 60k acres, i will happily sit at the top and say whos right and whos wrong while knocking people down that attempts to grow over a certain size :p

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It's funny, they were obviously never in this situation before, I don't think they know how to do that. They respawned as dwarf/sage from what I can tell.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

flogger, citadela01, I repeat those facts because most of the arguments coming from your side are based off ignoring those facts....

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Whereas you refuse to meet any objective threshold for your own arguments, several of which are fundamental to argumentation and have been pointed out, linked, described in detail and pointed out to you in numerous posts.

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.... and don't hold any water in light of the facts.

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Again, you need to distinguish between facts and conclusory statements.

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Your side conveniently tries to ignore or even lie about these facts since most all of your points fall apart when they are considered.

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Your allegations have been denied. It is your job to establish them as facts before they MUST be reconciled with the actions of BB.

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If people claim we didn't offer reasonable reparations to whatever BB needed, then I'll repeat the fact that we did.

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Conclusory statements are not facts.

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If people claim that bour was out to "FSU" bb, then I will point out how he tried to cf before any hits and offered all land plus extra free land back at the time he did hit and offered extras to ensure BB wasn't hurt if he could just get his cf.

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After they had lost time use of land, after their pump was interrupted, after the real damage had been done, then he made an offer which you aver is full reparations but have yet to demonstrate were in fact full reparations and still do not go to the question of future deterrence. Moreover such damages do not account for the aggravating factor of the conspiracy which is established conclusively by the logs, unlike most of the statements you make which have no objective support,,but instend rely upon the reader inferring an intent of Bour which is at odds with the conduct he demonstrated before.

You have presented nothing but conclusory statements that you forcefully insist are facts, but forceful insistence is NOT necessarily credible evidence and is NOT fact.

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Originally Posted by Palem

K. Just confirming that Emeriti was getting gangbanged for something other kingdoms did.

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No emeriti is getting gangbanged for initiating a conspiracy in which other kingdoms were the operative actors but emeriti was the origin of the action.

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Originally Posted by Felonious

(btw, there's mountains of evidence that BB's main ally is dirty to the core. Seems they dont mind turning a blind eye to all that though. Odd...)

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None of which evidence is relevant to the issue at hand here as discussed earlier.

#1 it does not bear on emeriti's guilt.

#2 the prior actions were punished by either the game staff, so the punishment is beyond review of the players or was determined to be insignificant and prosecution was waived, thus again, having no bearing on the current actions.

Will emeriti people please use basic logic to argue relavant points and please learn the difference between facts, conclusory statements, and allegations.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Whereas you refuse to meet any objective threshold for your own arguments, several of which are fundamental to argumentation and have been pointed out, linked, described in detail and pointed out to you in numerous posts.

Again, you need to distinguish between facts and conclusory statements.

Your allegations have been denied. It is your job to establish them as facts before they MUST be reconciled with the actions of BB.
Conclusory statements are not facts.

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I don't even know what you're referring to regarding your first statement there. I was just (correctly) accused of posting the same things over and over. These things I'm posting over and over are the facts of the situation that your side hates to be known because it makes what you did look really inexcusable. When the full facts are shown, the lies your side has been trying to make people believe no longer make any sense.

The statements flogger and I were talking about are FACTS. Just because flogger tried denying them before the screenshots came out doesn't mean they aren't facts. Flogger denying a fact and then being shown to be a liar by proof does not make the fact turn into a conclusory statement. The facts I state have been proven to be true with real evidence. If you and your side are "right", why does your side need to keep lying about and trying to discredit the truth? On the other hand, I admit where our side has been wrong but stand up against the other false accusations and lies by posting facts.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

After they had lost time use of land, after their pump was interrupted, after the real damage had been done..

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Bour offered all land back plus extra free land from the time he first razed. This was before any pump was interrupted and before any real damage had been done. This is a FACT. Why do you try so hard to lie about it?

"facts"

So clever flogger to put quotes around a word after you've repeatedly been caught in lies.

When did I lie?

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

So clever flogger to put quotes around a word after you've repeatedly been caught in lies.

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You do tend to present your opinions as facts, hence the quotation makrks i presume

You realize the entire point of me posting our evidence in steps was to catch you in about 5 different steps of lies before we acted, right? You simply never admit to anything unless I have a screenshot of an in-game message proving to the contrary. You've already denied everything at every step of the way until I produce more evidence. There's a reason I made sure you went back and looked at your logs before we even spoke.

"My entire motivation behind creating this clusterbleep was to enact some complicated plan to trap ASF and catch him being dishonest."

Again, man to man issue becomes realmwide calamity. Assassinating the target with a nuke when a bullet would have sufficed. Sorry Flogger, I really do prefer to remain impartial, but you're not helping your cause when you describe your motivation this way.

It wouldn't have been a complicated trap if at any point in the period of a week someone over there just manned up insteada covering up.

Just goes to show, never base the content of a trap on the expected actions of the victim.

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Originally Posted by Korp

"Ignored" Can we all assume, that if Emeriti hasnt responded within a timeframe of 4 hours they also ignoring and Emeriti refuses all deals?

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By their logic: yes. Lol

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

I don't even know what you're referring to regarding your first statement there. I was just (correctly) accused of posting the same things over and over. These things I'm posting over and over are the facts of the situation that your side hates to be known because it makes what you did look really inexcusable. When the full facts are shown, the lies your side has been trying to make people believe no longer make any sense.

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My point is, AGAIN, that you never actually present facts, just your opinion and conclusory statements which you proffer as FACT. You do not have facts, you have opinions.

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Bour offered all land back plus extra free land from the time he first razed. This was before any pump was interrupted and before any real damage had been done. This is a FACT. Why do you try so hard to lie about it?

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As I outlined to you there are multiple levels of damages here. Lets tally them up shall we? There is the land, which I believe was 750 acres. During the time that BB was without it they lost not only the value of the land but the value of its production. 750*25*24 (lets assume it was only 24 ticks they were without it, it may be more or less, I don't know the exact number.)*2.75 = 1237500 gc (not including banks/science/bonuses). Lets assume they were running 30% guilds so they lost out on 30*7.5 or 225 guilds or 225*.02*24 = 108 wizards behind schedule. Now these were cow acres, so that also casued a delay in exploration. so 24 hrs longer to amass the gc for exploration * their explore costs * the acres to be explored * all the effects above.

Then we add on the KD wide costs of having to convert from pump builds 25provicnes*60% of land*1K/landgc*total land apply to wizards, gold, etc etc etc,

Then we add on the costs of late diplomacy causing futher disruption to the flow of resources etc.


So let me be clear again. Bour did not offer ANYTHING NEAR the damage he caused. I have not even gotten into deterrence or punitive damages. So do not spout BS about full and fair reparations. You all offered nothing relative to the total cost and disruption caused by your conspiracy. YES IT WAS a conspiracy, look at the logs where your leadership in channel with bour discuss precisely what was to happen before it actually happened. THAT is a conspiracy. The fact that it happened almost precisely as described is prima facia evidence that the conspiracy was carried out. Again I refer you to the wiki on inchoate crimes and the defenses available for inchoate crimes. Note again that you fail to meet the threshold criteria for any of the defenses to an inchoate crime.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Every part of our deal was made before yours and was due before yours. Every part of your deal was made after ours. Your deal to quick bypass your notice deal and your later scheduled dates directly caused a deal break on us, directly screwed us out of the target we were scheduled for first and that we noticed first, and cost us our chances int he crown race. Not only all that, but you also caused us to break pump and sit trained up for a week using all our resources by not even letting us know of your **** play until the last minute.

It's a frequent tactic in the top these days for a kingdom to threaten to farm out to a more friendly kingdom to dodge another. It's also considered a major **** play to accept such a thing and this is exactly what you did. Despite this, did you see us whining about it in public to have you gb'd for it or deal breaking you for it? We did nothing. You didn't and still won't even apologize for it let alone give any reparations or accept any "punishments".




Post war cf where you were mass exploring attackers up into his range and ingored their cf requests (4 read messages without any reply). Then after Bour razed he immediately offered all land and extra back for a cf again before you even had to ask. All you had to do was give him a cf and you would have came out of it with extra cow land and no harm. But no, you wouldn't do that would you? Instead you'll lie and deal break and gb into real war (not post war which is just vulturing since it can't affect the outcome of any ongoing conflict.) It's clear that you only wanted any excuse you could find to continue your **** play and you rejected all offers to put BB in a stronger position than they would have been without Bour even playing.

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Erhm, our formal CF with them expired more than a week before you noticed em.
Get it now?

Fwiw, this whole Bour woukd fake hostile us would just end in Dorje waving us anyway. You'd tell us "bour has a small kd not in range, hostile is not legit!"
We would be in a worse position than if no razes happened. Is this really so hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

You can try and twist words into something else, but this is not what happened with Bour. Bour had 4 people in Bb read and ignore his messages that he made clear were urgent. He then hit and again offered them more new deals. BB did start talking to him after he got their attention by razing. At this time they directly rejected his offers of giving all land back plus extra for a cf. They then also directly rejected his offer of all land plus extra plus gc plus fake hostile for a cf.

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Because you are so ****ing braindead that you thought (and still think) that this was about land. NEWSFLASH: it wasn't. We had EVERY intention to just razekill that ghetto up until we found out this was Emeriti doing it.

Ill repeat it again because this is the only thing you use to try and get people to help you: Beastblood does not do this because they want to crown unlike ASF keeps telling people. Anyone believing his crap can see for himself at eoa that I speak the truth.

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Originally Posted by Korp

While you ignore the fact that it was your kingdom that suggested that he should raze your enemy kingdom to force a CF deal? :D ... No, I didnt ignored that part, but what you been claiming initially that due to them not responding fast enough for your taste they ignored and refused all deals. I would also refuse a deal with someone that just razed one of my provs, especially someone that has pulled this kind of behaviour previously and is friends with my top contender.

You must have some magical ability for sure, cause even with soldiers, gold coins and armouries it would take some time to train up.

The leverage lies in the threat of razing not actually razing. :) Or if the fact that you possed the training time of 5 hours which you seem to think is possible..

Im pretty nub yea :) It doesnt change the fact that you have repeated the same content for 21 pages now like a mantra.

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That's the point: they claim they did it because bour would get farmed. Fact is, nothing indicated we were going for bour

The razes started a few hours after Emeriti and BB didnt manage to make a CF deal. Like duh, why CF sages for 9 weeks?

One would wonder how a 2k acre province would be a threat to a what, 3k acre province? The 2k untrained, fresh explored and not even full pop, no resources? To a 3k dude with like what, 25k troops? Dont remember the exact numbers on troops /land.
The threat part is just a coverup to disguise the real reasons.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Emeriti's side is against deal breaking and has made offers to end this and directly return to a decent fair competitive framework. It's BB that initiated this and refuses such offers.

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We didn't ask friends to raze into eowcf. **** off with your 'bb initiated this'.

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Originally Posted by Judge

You honestly think they wanted to solve this via diplomacy?

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A diplomatic solution was offered and refused. Another ne has been offered and refused. Is that not the definition of Diplomacy failing? And yes If Emeriti pulled out of the age this would have never happened. If they stopped thinking that getting the land back outside of the EOWCF is equal to having that land and it not being razed and not having to convert early and adjust the time line then yes i think this would never be an issue. To continue thinking the land taken was not a huge deal when it forces a shift of how BB had to draft and stock and forced their hand into a the CF deal in the first place. I think you need to stop being blind to it and realize that the implanted idea is what caused this and was all on Emeriti. The fact you chose to stay in the race is on you and failing diplomacy to end it and lead the GB.

You do not have to agree with the situation or feel you had to sit out but to say they didnt offer a diplomatic solution is just stupid

Squee gets it.

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Originally Posted by Judge

I guess you didnt read it. It was a direct action from us where we defeated thm even after the GC farming. I am again asking flogger that if he wants the top without cheating then as ASF pointed out, why did flogger wait till it happened to him and not on others? Why is PYRO supporting this when they have done DUBIOUS things in VERY RECENT past?

Also Note that BB last age hit down some kd/province in hostile against their now friends FS(ASF pointed this out). Is bouncing down or hitting down a province in Hostile legit?

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Pyro was actioned for it. Its an online game, you can't control things 100%. Ask benM, he also multied. Don't be so ****ing hypocrite

As for the bounces: FS was hostile with Stoners. They had been for days. Suddenly an other kingdom hit them continously. They refused to stop even asking friendly about 15 times, so we bouncewaved their largest prov.
And?
(our CF with them had no terms and they were not getting hit by FS)

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Originally Posted by protector

Pyro was actioned for it. Its an online game, you can't control things 100%.
(our CF with them had no terms and they were not getting hit by FS)

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OMG pyro confirmed cheaters. Thats fine, BB who are supposedly the ethical kd have no problem aligning with those dirty cheats.

Emeriti, do something small and perhaps serious but go to great lengths to repair the damages. Suddenly its fair to DEAL-BREAK and GANG-BANG them.

This is the blatant dis-proportionality to the whole thing, not to mention the hypocrisy of aligning with last ages CONFIRMED cheaters.

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Originally Posted by Judge

Exactly my point! We had the guts to win against our opponents and BB actually didnt! The damage in both the instances cannot be counted but atleast we didnt have to GB them to show our supremacy!

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So supreme you asked for a yr10 cf early yr1 lol.

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Originally Posted by lampost

OMG pyro confirmed cheaters. Thats fine, BB who are supposedly the ethical kd have no problem aligning with those dirty cheats.

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One member was found to be a multi. Again this is painting the entire kingdom with the actions of one member. If this is the standard, then every province in emeriti and every player is in on the conspiracy.

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Emeriti, do something small and perhaps serious but go to great lengths to repair the damages. Suddenly its fair to DEAL-BREAK and GANG-BANG them.

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If proposing a settlement that is so far below the actual damages is going to great lengths......

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This is the blatant dis-proportionality to the whole thing, not to mention the hypocrisy of aligning with last ages CONFIRMED cheaters.

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They are against this ages confirmed conspirators. I see no problem here. You sir have the double standard, not BB. Do you not believe that once someone has been punished that they have paid their debt? Pyro's confirmed cheating, if you believe it was the entire KD, was actioned by the developers directly. Their punishment is beyond review. It was completed. We are now dealing with this age. If you want to bring up past wrongs, I can cite all sorts of account trading that ASF was associated with, I know for a fact that he played with at least three separate cross loggers because those same cross loggers later played in kingdoms with me and described in detail how to set up a cross logging setup like absalom had. I mean we can keep going down that rabbit hole, or we can stick to what is relevant, this age.