The bottom is hot

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Originally Posted by Persain

read the post above, if we give in to a ton of terms he'd admit to it. But then again im sure alot of kds will admit to something if they are given enough other stuff

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All I see him asking for is a clear set of rules to follow for diplo. We have been **** played before, prob every one in the game has been ****played at one point or another, it sucks. If Bart is willing to call our **** play a deal break in exchange for a set of rules that would allow mid tier to play on an even playing field of diplo with stronger KDs then good for him. You want bart to not pull tricky deals in the future? seems like working towards standardizing diplo would be a good place to start.

If you want a concession that only benefits you or punishes sparta, but doesnt address the larger issues then you are out of luck. We have lost plenty already and I at least dont feel sparta owes any thing extra to the kds OOW GBing us. If you white knights could get over your hatred for Bart you might see that standardized diplo would help the game in a lot of ways. Top always criticises inexperienced kds who get near top for their bad diplo, and the new kds criticise the top ones for their crazy diplo and double standards. Standardized diplo would reduce loopholes and double standards, it would make it easier for kds that are active and skilled at game mechanics to play at the top level with out disbanding due to diplo disparity. This is not really the core issue to the whole sparta v divinity **** play issue, but I don't see it as a huge concession or something that benefits bart... itd really just be good for the game.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ed

It's funny, I told u earlier how a kingdom lied and manipulated us into a war, killed 3 of my guys, taunted us with banners, insulted us and no one banded together to GB that kingdom. I mean you did say you look out for people that are not in a position to fight back, right? Where was your gangland justice then? Instead you are GB'ing someone that could have smashed us for backing out of a war but chose to help us instead, and you say you are GB'ing them because they will "bash down anyone unless they agree to war him in a way hes likely to win". The evidence shows you are wrong sir. Two people have come in here saying that Bart was fair and reasonable with us when he could have been a dick. 2 Kingdoms are smashing Spartans while they are in a war, and you want me to believe its because you are looking out for us mid-tier guys? You are making sure Spartans do not bully us? OMG, there goes my stomach again. hahaha

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This has nothing to do with your kingdom or how Spartans treated you.
This is the way Utopia has always policed itself, to keep some sort of code where you dont break deals without it having consequenses. Bart knew this.

Heaven> you guys just can't accept it
<Heaven> that this tiny noob outplayed ya
<Heaven> things change though
<Heaven> noobs don't stay noobs for always
<Binar> lol
<Binar> prepare to be razed
<Heaven> you think I wasn't prepared for that?
<Heaven> I knew this would b framed
<Heaven> to make us look bad
<Heaven> but I wonder if Emeriti will sacrifice their next age
<Heaven> just to raze us for you guys
<Binar> i bet they will
<Binar> over a nub that aint even playing
<Heaven> if Emeriti interferes
<Heaven> I migh just create an account ;)
<Heaven> and go blizz-style

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Originally Posted by beans

If Bart is willing to call our **** play a deal break in exchange for a set of rules that would allow mid tier to play on an even playing field of diplo with stronger KDs then good for him.

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basically saying that he'll lie to force other kds to follow some standard that he created and changed they way we all play utopia? yea, sure thats kinda 1 part of the issue, he'll do/say anything if it makes him look good.

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Originally Posted by beans

If you want a concession that only benefits you or punishes sparta, but doesnt address the larger issues then you are out of luck. We have lost plenty already and I at least dont feel sparta owes any thing extra to the kds OOW GBing us.

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Then they keep geting GB'ed. Spartans havent lost anything till they get a war loss or lose 20-30-40k honor. Acres mean nothing ww/honor have meaning to bart so they gota lose that. They had a chance to not lose either and war us w/a chance to win and take our honor but they long gave that up.

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Originally Posted by Andreas

I leave it to someone less nub than me to verify the following. :p

Since game admins leaves it to the player to deal with these sort of matters, this is generally how justice is maintained:
- The dealbroken kd usually files a complaint to a larger kd and asks them for help. The supposed dealbreaking kd does the same, I guess.
- That larger kd contacts other (by the community) respected leaders, asking their opinion and stance in the matter.
- If no resolve is found and a majority of the community agreed that it is in fact a dealbreak, policing starts and ends when the dealbreaking kd agrees to the terms offered, or it keeps taking damage until there isn't much left to lose.

It's common that the policing kds razes whatever acres gained so as not to profit from the incident. They can be seen as an instrument of the community to make sure deals can be trusted and foul play not rewarded.

If you feel mistreated you can appeal in the forum, but whining and repeating old arguments won't help.

At least that's how I like to see it. As good as it gets. Sometimes its more complicated than in this case though :P

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That is a fair assessment. I dont really have a problem with any of those aspects of the event.

given that framework of how things "normally" go id just point out. 1) spartan's did not bring this to the forums, we just responded to what others brought here. 2) We understand the UTO police decided this was a DB and accept the consequences of that decision, but don't have to agree with it 3) The UTO police have already taken far far far more than we gained and are demanding we give up more.


Also Persians, can you post the rest of your convo with Bart or PM it to me?

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Originally Posted by beans

far far far more than we gained and demanding we give up more.

Also Persians, can you post the rest of your convo with Bart or PM it to me?

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i offered to have u guys surrender your current war and raze away a portion of your honor. can easily get back the "land" you lost. Remember you have to lose something of "value" to you and since acres are meaningless well u havent lost anything yet.


i'll post the conversation later, to many locations to remove first

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Originally Posted by Persain

basically saying that he'll lie to force other kds to follow some standard that he created and changed they way we all play utopia? yea, sure thats kinda 1 part of the issue, he'll do/say anything if it makes him look good.

Then they keep geting GB'ed. Spartans havent lost anything till they get a war loss or lose 20-30-40k honor. Acres mean nothing ww/honor have meaning to bart so they gota lose that. They had a chance to not lose either and war us w/a chance to win and take our honor but they long gave that up.

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Well I dont see why we should admit this was a DB when most of my kd, either in sparta or other older kds, have suffered the same kind of **** play and been told it was just bad diplo. If there was a standard diplo rule that applied to all, and that rule said what we did was a DB then sure. I'd give a lot to see that happen because then I could monarch a kd again, which I greatly enjoy, with out suffering from the massive diplo disparity that makes this game such a drag.

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Originally Posted by Persain

i offered to have u guys surrender your current war and raze away a portion of your honor.

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As for losing a war... You wouldn't want Bart to agree to take a loss and WD as part of some diplomatic deal now would you? feels like we have come full circle now.

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Originally Posted by Defiance

You don't seem to be getting this so let me use a real life example to you. Person A Agrees to a verbal deal with person B, Person A then breaks this verbal contract and People C,D and E get upset and start to fight with person A about this. See there is nothing against the in game rules the same as person a didn't break the law, but what he did do was break rules between people, so yes spartans are getting everything they deserve.

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Let me give YOU a real life example of what else is going on here. Person A is a politician who lies all the time and steals. Person B (a nobody) lies to person A. Person A friends c and d chime in to help person A because person A is seen as doing nothing wrong before. Did person B do wrong yeah, did person A do wrong... Well yeah...

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Originally Posted by beans

That is a fair assessment. I dont really have a problem with any of those aspects of the event.

given that framework of how things "normally" go id just point out. 1) spartan's did not bring this to the forums, we just responded to what others brought here. 2) We understand the UTO police decided this was a DB and accept the consequences of that decision, but don't have to agree with it 3) The UTO police have already taken far far far more than we gained and are demanding we give up more.

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1) Ok
2) Uto police... I'd say the active community.
3) This process will continue until you say stop, give us reasonable terms considering a dealbreak has happened. What the police has gained is of no interest. It will be razed away or offered as compensation for the dealbreak in question.

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Originally Posted by Persain

i offered to have u guys surrender your current war and raze away a portion of your honor. can easily get back the "land" you lost. Remember you have to lose something of "value" to you and since acres are meaningless well u havent lost anything yet.


i'll post the conversation later, to many locations to remove first

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Yeah beans, raze killing one of your members isnt anything of "value" hell let them raze all the prov. Everything will be fine then.

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Originally Posted by Andreas

1) Ok
2) Uto police... I'd say the active community.
3) This process will continue until you say stop, give us reasonable terms considering a dealbreak has happened. What the police has gained is of no interest. It will be razed away or offered as compensation for the dealbreak in question.

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UTO police wasnt a disparagement. I think it's important that we have kds powerful enough and interested in policing.

We are willing to accept reasonable terms, as far as I can tell we are just stuck on the issue of admitting it was a DB. We don't see it as a DB and are not going to lie and say we do see it that way just to get the OOW GB to stop. Obviously, to all but our most adamant haters, we would not have pulled this move if we saw it as a DB.

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Originally Posted by Persain

i'll post the conversation later, to many locations to remove first

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Thats why I said or PM. I can take the time to remove locations, and if I miss one then bishop will ban me for 24hrs and you can have the thread to yourself! (I already made that mistake once, new to the forums, DOH!)

Later is fine, im not in a huge hurry. Pls not to much later though as it is relevant to the current discussions.

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Originally Posted by beans

UTO police wasnt a disparagement. I think it's important that we have kds powerful enough and interested in policing.

We are willing to accept reasonable terms, as far as I can tell we are just stuck on the issue of admitting it was a DB. We don't see it as a DB and are not going to lie and say we do see it that way just to get the OOW GB to stop. Obviously, to all but our most adamant haters, we would not have pulled this move if we saw it as a DB.

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False, your leaders have said they will admit it was deal break (lie?), as long as what you're getting in return is good enough.

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Originally Posted by zaza945

False, your leaders have said they will admit it was deal break (lie?), as long as what you're getting in return is good enough.

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If what we get is good enough.... yes because asking for standardized diplo is really selfish of us. And if new rules/standards are put in place that make it a clear deal break then sure... doesnt make it a lie. With the laissez faire diplo rules we have now I dont see it as a DB, just a ****ty move that we were not powerful enough to get away with.

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Originally Posted by beans

UTO police wasnt a disparagement. I think it's important that we have kds powerful enough and interested in policing.

We are willing to accept reasonable terms, as far as I can tell we are just stuck on the issue of admitting it was a DB. We don't see it as a DB and are not going to lie and say we do see it that way just to get the OOW GB to stop. Obviously, to all but our most adamant haters, we would not have pulled this move if we saw it as a DB.

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Ok. To make the DB accept thing go away, I'd try offer something that could be of value long term/next age. Grudges dropped, CF breakable on mutual agreement next age, noone/Bart pulling any stunts. I can't say if it will work, but worth a try no?

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Originally Posted by beans

As for losing a war... You wouldn't want Bart to agree to take a loss and WD as part of some diplomatic deal now would you? feels like we have come full circle now.

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surrendering a war that u've lost even becuase an outside kd is demanding it is very much differnt than agreeing to start a war knowing the outcome is pre-arranged.

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Originally Posted by Persain

surrendering a war that u've lost even becuase an outside kd is demanding it is very much differnt than agreeing to start a war knowing the outcome is pre-arranged.

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The war is far from lost, fake sparta is also getting OOW hits and they are more demoralized than sparta and are having activity issues. We are taking far more OOW hits and have had a PK already, but it could still go either way.

Agreeing now to WD from a war solely as a diplomatic concession to outside KDs, for the purpose of moving our WW score in a direction of their choosing, rather than withdrawing due to the actual war conditions seems exactly like a fake war to me. This is exactly the type of hypocrisy that I am talking about. We get waved because of a supposed fake war offer and now we are threatened with more waves unless we turn our war into a fake war. I'm sure if we made any diplo mistakes that allowed you to break an agreement we make now to hit us more later that you would be supported, because that is just how things work.

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Originally Posted by beans

The war is far from lost, fake sparta is also getting OOW hits and they are more demoralized than sparta and are having activity issues. We are taking far more OOW hits and have had a PK already, but it could still go either way.

Agreeing now to WD from a war solely as a diplomatic concession to outside KDs, for the purpose of moving our WW score in a direction of their choosing, rather than withdrawing due to the actual war conditions seems exactly like a fake war to me. This is exactly the type of hypocrisy that I am talking about. We get waved because of a supposed fake war offer and now we are threatened with more waves unless we turn our war into a fake war. I'm sure if we made any diplo mistakes that allowed you to break an agreement we make now to hit us more later that you would be supported, because that is just how things work.

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^^^^^ this. Forcing a withdraw will alter the ww charts making it a fake war forced upon them and offering to keep hitting them until they withdraw is a direct violation...

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Originally Posted by beans

The war is far from lost,

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you can surrender for any reason you want. outside pressure is one of those. Try to spin it if u dont want the loss but thats not a fake war

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Originally Posted by Persain

you can surrender for any reason you want. outside pressure is one of those. Try to spin it if u dont want the loss but thats not a fake war

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Then why did you say you wanted to force a withdraw? Then raze the honor away?

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Originally Posted by beans

Agreeing now to WD from a war solely as a diplomatic concession to outside KDs, for the purpose of moving our WW score in a direction of their choosing, rather than withdrawing due to the actual war conditions

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The outside hits seem real enough.. wonder why you don't consider them to be a part of your actual war conditions..

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Originally Posted by beans

seems exactly like a fake war to me. This is exactly the type of hypocrisy that I am talking about.

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But only one of the two is cheating.

ace..razes from other kingdoms don't take honor. He meant for sparta to intra raze themselves as show that the message has been received and learned. This way no one gains that honor or land, so no one can say that someone benefited from policing.

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

ace..razes from other kingdoms don't take honor. He meant for sparta to intra raze themselves as show that the message has been received and learned. This way no one gains that honor or land, so no one can say that someone benefited from policing.

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Sorry to break your rose colored glasses my friend but persian specifically said "our honor" and as for benefiting we will see if emiriti loses the 12k land they got from the spartans. Ill give you a hint *whispers* they wont. They want spartans to get a war loss apparently so I was just saying. Forcing a kd to wd. As divinity JUST offered spartans is a clear break in rules. Sure outside hit can continue but you can say "lose or we will kill you more" how do they know they arent just getting a win for the other side or something like that. Setting up an outcome in a war is BREAKING THE RULES... That's what ive heard from this thread at least right? No grey areas?

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Originally Posted by Aces

Sorry to break your rose colored glasses my friend but persian specifically said "our honor" and as for benefiting we will see if emiriti loses the 12k land they got from the spartans. Ill give you a hint *whispers* they wont. They want spartans to get a war loss apparently so I was just saying. Forcing a kd to wd. As divinity JUST offered spartans is a clear break in rules. Sure outside hit can continue but you can say "lose or we will kill you more" how do they know they arent just getting a win for the other side or something like that. Setting up an outcome in a war is BREAKING THE RULES... That's what ive heard from this thread at least right? No grey areas?

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Surrendering isn't breaking the rules...agreeing to surrender before a war starts is. One method u could do to avoid gb is surrender your current war and then intra raze away a good deal of your honor. None of that is breaking the rules.

Also as for the land emeriti took, they dont want your land and wont keep it. question is if we take it, they get it razed away, donate to CR.....no one really wants that land except maybe spartans.

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Originally Posted by Persain

Surrendering isn't breaking the rules...agreeing to surrender before a war starts is. One method u could do to avoid gb is surrender your current war and then intra raze away a good deal of your honor. None of that is breaking the rules.

Also as for the land emeriti took, they dont want your land and wont keep it. question is if we take it, they get it razed away, donate to CR.....no one really wants that land except maybe spartans.

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So you CAN decide the outcome of a war and it not be a fake war. if someone who isnt in the war is forcing you into it? Good to know. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Persain

no one really wants that land except maybe spartans.

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*ahem*

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Originally Posted by jwuzi

*ahem*

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yea...i mean no one involved in the GB :P dont worry

No its not a fake war if outside forces interfer to create a loss. Or forces a loss. Thats called a gangbang or possibly an alliance war.

Fakewar is when the entire war itself is fake and pre-agreed in order to achiev something else than the actual war. Like a free Pump in war-prot OR escape from other wars or bad situations. Like what happened here.
And in that situation terms are agreed upon and heres the crucial part! -> Agreed winner/loser before the war actually begins! (Which is what you offered to divinity)

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Originally Posted by Retailer

No its not a fake war if outside forces interfer to create a loss. Or forces a loss. Thats called a gangbang or possibly an alliance war.

Fakewar is when the entire war itself is fake and pre-agreed in order to achiev something else than the actual war. Like a free Pump in war-prot OR escape from other wars or bad situations. Like what happened here.
And in that situation terms are agreed upon and heres the crucial part! -> Agreed winner/loser before the war actually begins! (Which is what you offered to divinity)

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Good to know. So the rules are set up that an outside force can dictate the ww charts? So if a group of top kds banded together to infulence ww that wouldnt be against the rules? I'm learning so much here! I thought it was any force influencing the ww chart was at fault ( like it says in the rules) but thats good to know. Thank you

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Originally Posted by Aces

Good to know. So the rules are set up that an outside force can dictate the ww charts? So if a group of top kds banded together to infulence ww that wouldnt be against the rules? I'm learning so much here! I thought it was any force influencing the ww chart was at fault ( like it says in the rules) but thats good to know. Thank you

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depends on HOW they influence the ww chart. if its simply A wars B and C threatens B yes thats tehincally legal. however when "kds" found out its going on there would probubly be a gangbang of both A and C

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Originally Posted by Persain

depends on HOW they influence the ww chart. if its simply A wars B and C threatens B yes thats tehincally legal. however when "kds" found out its going on there would probubly be a gangbang of both A and C

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Sir if Ive learned anything from this thread is that there is no grey space when it comes to rules. Its black and white so which is it?

So if a kd lets it be known that they will wd from a war they dont think they can win it's a fake war. But when a kd does wd from a war they can win in order to achieve diplomatic goals it's legit?

The "offer" wasnt we are going to raze you until their is no way you can win the war and have to WD. For it to be an "offer" at all we would have to disregard who would actually win/lose the war and just promise to WD so that we have the WW record that persians has determined we deserve.

Of course this is just me "spinning" the facts. Looking back on it now I see that the white knights have all been super straightforward with their honest and righteous diplo while any one who sees sparta's side of things is either a noob or just spinning things. How very noobish and spinny of me to have an opinion at all.

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Originally Posted by Aces

Sir if Ive learned anything from this thread is that there is no grey space when it comes to rules. Its black and white so which is it?

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Its neither. Its yellow and brown with a white background called snow.

This one time at band camp....

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Originally Posted by Aces

Good to know. So the rules are set up that an outside force can dictate the ww charts? So if a group of top kds banded together to infulence ww that wouldnt be against the rules? I'm learning so much here! I thought it was any force influencing the ww chart was at fault ( like it says in the rules) but thats good to know. Thank you

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Aces im merely saying what is as per utopia game rules by the devs/owners/mods and fake wars for that reason is forbidden.

Retaliating or diplomatic disputes or interferring in other kd's affairs is something else and that is the sole erason why utopian diplomacy exists. I will not go on further about interpretations of other things or whats morally right or wrong here. Im just saying what game rules are. As in there is NO discussing it. Bishop warns/suspens/bans people who break utopia's rules. Just ask strippers what bishop did to them a few ages ago.

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Originally Posted by beans

So if a kd lets it be known that they will wd from a war they dont think they can win it's a fake war. But when a kd does wd from a war they can win in order to achieve diplomatic goals it's legit?.

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If said war-terms involving withdrawal are made before the war starts then yes. If you were to have offered divinity a war win before the war even started even if you were to offer them the war win so you could escape some other situations. If that would be the case then yes. Now that divinity didnt actually accept the offer of a free war win its not a fake war. And although the offer was made. There is no real proof that you would "stick with it". However if any of your previously warred kd's would come forward and say that they had entered war agreeing on the outcome (win/lose) beforehand. Wow then you would be in trouble =)

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Originally Posted by Retailer

If said war-terms involving withdrawal are made before the war starts then yes. If you were to have offered divinity a war win before the war even started even if you were to offer them the war win so you could escape some other situations. If that would be the case then yes. Now that divinity didnt actually accept the offer of a free war win its not a fake war. And although the offer was made. There is no real proof that you would "stick with it". However if any of your previously warred kd's would come forward and say that they had entered war agreeing on the outcome (win/lose) beforehand. Wow then you would be in trouble =)

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Ok so its only a fake war because of deals made before the war starts? So now that we are in a war we can WD or not regardless of who is winning the war or what deals we are making and its legit, ok.

Oh wait, looking at the wiki about fake wars I see nothing like this. Maybe all these rules are written down some where else that I don't know about? (I kid, but also seriously if there are game rules written down outside of the wiki let me know haha)

Emeriti will not be keeping their land they took from Spartans. They have talked to me and others about razing it out as soon as we are done. No one gains off of policing a deal break.

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Originally Posted by Chrystal Palace

No one gains off of policing a deal break.

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Yes we have never had 50 page forum threads about that sort of thing or anything. CP you never cease to amaze.

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Originally Posted by beans

Ok so its only a fake war because of deals made before the war starts? So now that we are in a war we can WD or not regardless of who is winning the war or what deals we are making and its legit, ok.

Oh wait, looking at the wiki about fake wars I see nothing like this. Maybe all these rules are written down some where else that I don't know about? (I kid, but also seriously if there are game rules written down outside of the wiki let me know haha)

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stop fighting with the "system" man... nobody cares what u think or do, aslong as they have something to gain from you they will do whatever it takes to take it... welcome to the "unwriten rulles" of utopia made by CP and other "top" forum trollers ;)

This is the sad part of utopia... but for some reasons dear moderators allows all this ****s with hitting in someone else wars, breaking CFs whenever u want and so on.

If u where a kd with 30k acres and deal breaked 10 kds none of them would care... now they have some land/honor to gain and above all they dont get borred.. cuz up there with all these "unwriten rulles" of utopia if u suck badlly and screw 1st few weeks of the age u have nothing else to do than just bully @ and forum troll.

So my advice to you... stop talking in here cuz u will get nowere and actually make things worst to u... as I sayed everything u say will be turned @ in theyr favor ;) do what u have to do screw them all :P

"THIS IS SPARTA!" :)

The hypocrisy in this thread is unbelievable..